JUNE 28, 2016 -- MSNBC broke ratings records across all key dayparts for both the month of June and the second quarter of 2016, and continues to post significantly higher year-to-year growth than its cable news competitors. MSNBC prime (8-11pm) beat CNN outright to rank #2 among total viewers for the quarter and delivered its biggest total viewer audience since 4Q12. At 9pm, “The Rachel Maddow Show” topped CNN in both total viewers and the demo – marking the 27th straight quarterly win over CNN in total viewers and the second straight in the demo. For the quarter, “Morning Joe” drew the biggest total viewer audience for the 6-9am timeslot in MSNBC’s history as well as the show’s best demo average in over three years (since 4Q12). “Morning Joe” beat CNN’s “New Day” in both total viewers and the demo – marking the fifth straight quarterly win over CNN in total viewers and the second straight in the demo. MSNBC’s breaking news-focused dayside programming (9am-5pm) topped the previous quarter’s record, delivering the daypart’s best total viewer average since 4Q12 and best demo average since 1Q13. Dayside’s year-to-year growth continues to far outpace the competition with gains of +93% in total viewers (vs. just +34% for CNN and +12% for FOX) and +130% in the key demo (vs. just +25% for CNN and +14% for FOX) compared to 2Q15. MSNBC’s Total Day (M-Su 6am-6am) audience hit its highest numbers since 4Q12 in total viewers and since 1Q14 in the demo. MSNBC is posting more Total Day growth than the competition, up +61% among total viewers (vs. 46% for CNN and +18% for FOX) and up +54% in the demo (vs. 36% for CNN and +16% for FOX) compared to 2Q15. 2Q 2016 PROGRAM HIGHLIGHTS MORNING JOE (M-F 6-9am)

    • Morning Joe” delivered the biggest total viewer audience for the 6-9am timeslot in MSNBC’s history, as well as its best demo average in over three years (since 4Q12).
    • “Morning Joe” topped CNN’s “New Day” among both total viewers and the demo. This marks the fifth straight quarterly win over CNN in total viewers and the second straight quarter in the demo.
    • “Morning Joe” posted significantly higher year-to-year growth than the competition, up +68% among total viewers (vs. +36% for CNN’s and +16% for FOX) and up +95% in the demo (vs. +23% for CNN and +7% for FOX).
    • “Morning Joe” averaged 608,000 total viewers (ahead of CNN’s 448,000) and 154,000 viewers A25-54 (ahead of CNN’s 135,000).

    DAYSIDE (M-F 9am-5pm)

    • MSNBC dayside’s year-to-year growth continues to soar over the competition, posting gains of +93% in total viewers (vs. +34% for CNN and +12% for FOX) and +130% in the key demo (vs. +25% for CNN and +14% for FOX). 
    • 2Q16 marks MSNBC dayside’s biggest total viewer audience since 4Q12 and best demo average since 1Q13.
    • More cable news viewers are choosing MSNBC: the 9am-5pm daypart pulled in its largest share of the total viewer audience since 4Q12 and largest share of the demo audience since 1Q13.

    EARLY EVENING (M-F 5-8pm)

    • MTP Daily with Chuck Todd,” which launched in September 2015, posted the 5pm time period’s best total viewer average since 4Q13 and best demo average since 1Q14.
    • With All Due Respect,” which debuted on MSNBC in January 2016, delivered the 6pm time period’s highest total viewer average since 1Q14 and highest demo average since 2Q14.
    • Hardball with Chris Matthews” topped CNN among total viewers and delivered the show’s best total viewer average since 4Q13. “Hardball” also delivered its best demo average since 1Q14.

    WEEKDAY PRIME (M-F 8-11pm)

    • MSNBC beat CNN outright to rank #2 in prime among total viewers.
    • MSNBC prime delivered its biggest total viewer audience since 4Q12.
    • Compared to 2Q15, MSNBC prime is up +90% in total viewers (vs. +88 for CNN and +21% for FOX) and +113% in the demo (vs. +71% for CNN and +15% for FOX).
    • All In with Chris Hayes” delivered its best averages in both total viewers and the demo since 4Q12.
    • Compared to 2Q15, “All In” is up +74% in total viewers (vs. +50% for CNN and +19% for FOX) and up +105% in the demo (vs. +37% for CNN and +10% for FOX).
    • The Rachel Maddow Show” ranked #2 in both total viewers and the demo, beating CNN’s regular programming for the 27th straight quarter in total viewers and second quarter in the demo.
    • “The Rachel Maddow Show” delivered its biggest total viewer audience since 4Q12 and biggest demo audience since 4Q12.
    • Compared to 2Q15, “The Rachel Maddow Show” is up +73% in total viewers (vs. 60% for CNN and +14% for FOX) and up +110% in the demo (vs. 43% for CNN and +8% for FOX).
    • The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell” topped CNN’s regular programming in total viewers for the fourth straight quarter.
    • “The Last Word” delivered its best averages in both total viewers and the demo since 4Q12. 
    • Compared to 2Q15, “The Last Word” is up +96% in total viewers (vs. +36% for CNN and +41% for FOX) and up +102% in the demo (vs. +19% for CNN and +35% for FOX).


    • MSNBC ranked #2 ahead of CNN in total viewers.
    • Compared to June 2015, MSNBC prime is up +89% in total viewers (far ahead of CNN’s +64% and FOX’s +21%) and up +109% in the demo (nearly double CNN’s +58% and ahead of FOX’s +14%).
    • Morning Joe” ranked #2 in both total viewers and the demo, topping CNN among total viewers for the 16th straight month and in the demo for the third straight month.
    • “Morning Joe” posted the time period’s best total viewer delivery since April 2003.
    • MSNBC dayside delivered its best monthly total viewer average since January 2013.
    • Compared to June 2015, MSNBC dayside is up +92% in total viewers (vs. 46% for CNN and 18% for FOX) and up +147% in the demo (vs. 33% for CNN and +20% for FOX).
    • MTP Daily” posted the 5pm time period’s biggest total viewer audience since October 2013 and best demo average since February 2014.
    • With All Due Respect” drew the 6pm time period’s biggest total viewer audience since January 2014 and best demo average since April 2014.
    • Hardball with Chris Matthews” ranked #2 in total viewers, marking the third straight monthly win over CNN and the show’s biggest total audience since October 2013.
    • All In with Chris Hayes” ranked #2 in total viewers, topping CNN and delivering the biggest total audience since November 2012.
    • The Rachel Maddow Show” ranked #2 in both total viewers and the demo, marking the 37th straight win over CNN among total viewers and second straight demo win over CNN.
    • The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell” ranked #2 in total viewers for the 13th straight month, posting its best total viewer audience since November 2012 and best demo average since December 2012.
  • MORNING JOE NEWS: Bernie Sanders Says “Yes,” He Will Vote for Hillary Clinton in November

    Today on “Morning Joe,” Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) said, “Yes,” he will vote for Hillary Clinton in November. Rush transcript and video are below. Mandatory credit: MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”

    Video: http://on.msnbc.com/293vi3c

    Embed Code:

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    WILLIE GEIST:  Joining us now, Democratic presidential candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Senator, always good to see you, sir. 


    BERNIE SANDERS:  Good to be with you.


    GEIST:  Your reaction to the vote overnight, did the people o Great Britain make the right call here? 


    SANDERS: Well,  I don't live in great Britain, but I’ll tell you what I think.


    What worries me very much is the breaking down of international cooperation.  Europe in the 20th century, as we all know, the kind of blood that was shed there was – is unimaginable. You never want to see that again. 


    On the other hand, I think what this vote is about is an indication that the global economy is not working for everybody, you know?  It's not working in the United States for everybody and it's not working in the U.K. for everybody.  When you see, you know, investors going to China and shutting down factories in this country, and laying off over a period of many years, millions of people are saying, you know what, global economy may be great for some people, not for me. 


    So what we need to do is create a situation where there is more international cooperation.  We put an end to these horrific wars that we have seen over the years.  But at the same time, we do not forget about the people left behind and we make sure that we have jobs, and income and health care for all of our people. 


    GEIST:  So, based off what you said then is withdraw from the E.U. then a  mistake for the  U.K. ? 


    SANDERS:  I'll let the people in the U.K. make that decision. 


    NICOLLE WALLACE:  Turning back to – to our country's broiling politics, are you going to vote for Hillary Clinton in November? 


    SANDERS:  Yes, yes, I think the issue right here is I'm going to do everything I can to defeat Donald Trump.  I think Trump in so many ways will be a disaster for this country, if he were to be elected president. 


    We do not need a president whose cornerstone of his campaign is – is bigotry, is insulting Mexicans, and Latinos, and Muslims and women; who does not believe in the reality of climate change when virtually every scientist who has studied this issue understands we have a global crisis.  This is not somebody who should become president. 


    What my job right now is is to fight for the strongest possible platform in the Democratic convention and as we speak in St.  Louis, that's going on right now.  And that means a platform that represents working people that stands up to big money interests and that's what we're trying to do. 


    WALLACE:  So your vote will be a vote for Hillary Clinton or against Donald trump? 


    SANDERS:  Well, look, I don’t want to parse words right now. What I am trying to do right now is to make sure that the Democratic party becomes the party that represents working people, not Wall Street, that is prepared…


    WALLACE:  So is it…


    SANDERS:  … that is prepared to have an agenda that speaks to the need of creating millions of jobs, raising the minimum wage to $15.00 an hour, dealing with climate change, dealing with pay equity.  Those are the issues that we need to have not only in a platform, but we need Democratic leadership to be implemented. 


    GEIST:  So Senator, just to put a button on this, you said, you'll vote for Hillary Clinton, which means you won't vote for yourself.  Have you accepted now that you won’t be the nominee? 


    SANDERS:  I'm pretty good at arithmetic, and what I know is that Hillary Clinton has more pledged delegates than I do, and she has a lot more super-delegates than I do. 


    But what I also know is we're bringing 1,900 delegates into the convention, that we have received 13 million votes and that what I am going to be doing right now, and I'm starting this afternoon, heading to Syracuse for an event this evening, is we are – we are going to be urging millions of people to get involved in the political process. 


    You may recall last week I did a speech on the Internet, and I said, get involved and – and run for school board, run for city council, run for state legislation.  You know how many people responded?  20,000 people.  So, what we want to do is reinvigorate the Democratic party, bring new blood in and have a party that represents working people. 


    GEIST:  So if you – if you -- Senator, if you’ve accepted the arithmetic of – of the race and you realize that she's likely to become the nominee, why not withdraw from the race? 


    SANDERS:  Why would I want to do that when I want to fight to make sure that we have the best platform that we possibly can, that we win the most delegates that we can and that we transform -- the goal of our campaign was to transform this nation. 


    WALLACE:  So, the disunity isn't putting any disadvantage against Donald Trump? 


    SANDERS:  Look, you talk about disunity, I talk about involving the American people in the political process and wanting to have a government and a party that represents all of us. 


    When you have disunity, what we're talking about is kids can't – can’t afford to go to college or leaving college $50,000 in debt, people dying because they don't get to a doctor when they should.   Talk about disunity is the fact that we have 47 million people living in poverty.  What we want is a government that represents all of us and that's what I intend to fight for. 


    BARNICLE:  So I -- I’ve been writing about you off and on and listening to your voice off and on. 


    SANDERS:  Oh, I know that, Mike. 


    GEIST:  For years, and years and years you’ve been talking about the same issues consistently for 50 years. 


    And now in your presidential campaign, you just referenced it, you know, people's needs, working people’s needs, jobs leaving this country. 


    SANDERS:  Right.


    GEIST:  But it seems today, and yesterday's vote is another indication of it, this tide of globalization that cannot be stopped.  And millions of people in this country and in Europe basically asking themselves, where do I fit in this going forward?   Where do they fit? 


    SANDERS:  Mike, that's the right question.  And that's – that’s a question that we should be always asking and I’ve asked 20 years ago. 


    I was in Indiana a few months ago.  Two factories there being shut down, over 2,000 workers thrown out on the street.  Company, United Technologies, a very profitable corporation moving to Monterrey, Mexico, paying people $3.00 an hour.  What do you think the people in Indiana feel about globalization?  What we have to do is create an economy, and this is not that hard, that works for all of us, not just the people on top. 


    Unfettered free trade may be good for multinational corporations.  You know what? It is not good for the middle class and many workers.  So, we have got to shape trade policies and you can do that.  American workers, in my view, should not have to compete against people in Vietnam who make a minimum wage of $00.65 an hour.  That's my view.  And you know what?  I think most people agree with that. 


    Does that mean to say we build a wall around America, that you don’t have any trade?   That is absolutely not what I am saying.  Trade is a good thing.  International cooperation is imperative, but you have to pay attention to the working people in this country, not just to the CEOs who love these things, who write these trade agreements. 


    GEIST:  We have got a lot more to talk about with Senator Bernie Sanders.  A very quick break and much more with Senator Bernie Sanders, right after this.




    GEIST:  We are back now with presidential candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders. 


    Senator, I was watching your speech last night here in New York City and you said something that jumped out to me.  To the audience and the people watching at home, you said never lose your sense of outrage. 


    What did you mean by that in a specific way? 


    SANDERS:  We walk down the streets and see people sleeping out on the streets.  We know that there are schools in this country where more people who grad -- leave those schools will end up in jail than will graduate college. 


    We have a grotesque level of income and wealth inequality, such as the top one tenth of one percent now owns as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.  This is outrageous, outrageous, outrageous and no American should accept that.  And what we have got to do is fight for a country that works for all of us. 


    This is not utopian -- you know, visionary thinking.  We have the technology, we have the wealth to do that.  Why are we the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people?   You tell me.  Are we too dumb, we can't do it?  Why do we not do what Germany does and make sure that we have free tuition at public colleges and universities.  That is a good investment for America. 


    Why do we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country on earth?  These are things we should be outraged at.  And yet, for a variety of reasons, you know, those issues are pushed aside and we're told how wonderful everything is.  Well, it's not wonderful if you're a working person. 




    BARNICLE:  Go ahead, Steve.


    RATTNER:  Let me ask you, if I could, two sort of economic questions.  You alluded in the earlier segment to the carrier (ph) Indiana -- the plant -- carrier plant in Indiana, excuse me, that was moving to Mexico and that's something that Donald Trump has talked a lot about on the campaign trail as well.


    So given that both of you guys have identified this as the kind of thing that shouldn't happen in America, he has one solution.  I suspect you might have a different solution.  What would you do about the problem of a carrier type plant moving to Mexico? 


    SANDERS:  I think you need to develop a trade policy which says if you want to shut down in America, you want to move abroad, you want to pay people $3 an hour in Mexico, you know what, you're not going to bring your products back to this country tariff free.  And by the way, in terms of...


    RATTNER:  Isn't that what Donald Trump says?


    SANDERS:  Well, so what?  I mean, it's not a new idea. 


    RATTNER:  I'm just asking. 


    SANDERS:  Yeah, you know, in it terms of United Technologies, here's what else you do.  United Technologies, as I recall, gets about $5 billion a year in defense contracts.  And maybe the president sits down with United Technologies and say, you know what, if you want to benefit from defense contracts, you might be a good citizen and you might -- take the needs of the American worker into consideration.  I think those are some of the things...


    WALLACE:  There could be -- I'm sorry,


    RATTNER:  (Inaudible) my other part.  Hillary Clinton gave an economic speech a couple days ago in which she talked about no student should graduate from a public school with debt.  She talked about raising taxes on the rich.  Some things that sounded very reminiscent of the things that you're saying.  Do you feel that she's moved your way?  Do you feel like she's moved your way enough? 


    SANDERS:  Well, you know, the devil is in the details.  I believe that in the year 2016 when you talk about public education it should mean that public colleges and universities are tuition free.  And there are other things that you can do and that's what I want to see happen. 


    Has Hillary Clinton taken some of the positions or moved to some degree where we are in terms of the TPP, in terms of the Keystone Pipeline, maybe in terms of Social Security?  Yeah, I think she has to some degree.  But nowhere near as far as I think we need to go. 


    BARNICLE:  We just played, obviously, before you got here, a clip from Donald Trump's press conference live from Scotland.  He says many of the same things there that he says here around the country during his campaign. 


    What do you hear when he says, quote, "People want to take their country back again," unquote.  What do you hear? 


    SANDERS:  Well, I hear a phony.  I hear a multibillionaire.  I hear a very arrogant egotistical man who will say anything to try to get votes and I have zero respect for anybody who tries to get votes by insulting Mexicans or Muslims or women. 


    So I think you got a political opportunist of the worst kind.  I don't think he believes in anything.  I think the -- I would not -- you know, I have used this word.  If you know me well enough, you know that I don't go around attacking personally other people.


    He's a pathological liar.  That's not just me who is saying that.  It's -- in the media who covers him.  Guy says one thing on one day and the next thing he says -- the next day something else.  So that's kind of my views (ph) on Trump.


    WALLACE:  Sir, 55 percent of your supporters have said that should you not be the nominee, they will support Hillary Clinton.  Do you have, in your mind, a higher number than that?  Do you want 100 percent of your supporters to get behind -- and what will you do to move that number up if that is one of your goals? 


    SANDERS:  Well, one of my goals -- my major goal is to make sure that Trump does not become president of the United States.  My other major goal right now is to make sure that we have a stronger House and Senate as possible.  I'm going to do everything I can to see the Democrats regain control of the Senate, that we win as many seats in the House, win as many governors races.


    And by the way, that we create a movement.  What we're trying to do now is to create a movement within the Democratic Party of progressives who are going to run for election from the school board on up to the United States Congress. 


    GEIST:  A lot of Democrats have said, Senator, could he not simultaneously continue the movement, keeping out their supporting candidates and support Hillary Clinton as the nominee.  Why don't you go at it at that way? 


    SANDERS:  Well we have talked -- you know, we -- are in discussions, frankly, with the Clinton camp.  And it would be of no great shock to you that what we want from them is to be very, very strong on a number of issues. 


    WALLACE:  On policy. 


    SANDERS:  On policy issues, absolutely.  You know, I want -- I would like Hillary Clinton to say, you know what, yeah, public colleges and universities should be tuition free.  Can we do other things?  Yeah, we can. 


    I would like to see Hillary Clinton move us closer.  She's not going to adopt my view of a Medicare for all single-payer program.  I know that.  But I would like to see her go a lot further than she has in making sure that we're moving toward a day in the very near future where all of our people have health care as a right, not a privilege. 


    GEIST:  Okay.  As we leave you, I know you have to get going, I want to play for you one thing.  I don't know if you saw this young man named Jack Aiello, an eighth grader from the Chicago area at his high school graduation did an impersonation of all the presidential candidates, including you.  Jimmy Fallon then invited him on his show.  Here's Jack Aiello doing Bernie Sanders.




    JACK AIELLO, IMPRESSIONIST (as Little Donald Trump):  You know, it's just fantastic to be here.  It's just fantastic. 


    JIMMY FALLON, HOST OF THE TONIGHT SHOW (as Donald Trump):  Isn't it beautiful?  Isn't it terrific? 


    AIELLO:  Down boy, down. 


    FALLON:  Down boy.  Down boy.  Easy -- easy, boy. 


    AIELLO:  Easy, easy, easy.


    FALLON:  Hey little Donald, I've got an idea.  Let's prank call Hillary.  Here.  You pretend to be Bernie Sanders. 


    AIELLO:  Hello, Secretary Clinton, this is Senator Bernie Sanders.  Is your refrigerator running?  Well, so am I!  And I'm never, ever dropping out!


    FALLON:  Genius.  That's genius.  Where did you learn all these amazing impressions?


    AIELLO:  Trump University, which is terrific, by the way.








    GEIST:  How's Jack's Bernie Sanders?


    SANDERS:  That's pretty good.




    WALLACE:  And if you're not laughing, you're crying, right?


    GEIST:  Senator Bernie Sanders, we always really appreciate your time.


    WALLACE:  Thank you.


    GEIST:  Thanks so much for being here.


    SANDERS:  Thank you.








    Former presidential candidate Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) spoke to NBC’s Kelly O’Donnell on the heels of his announcement that he will run for re-election to the Senate in November.


    Asked why he changed his mind, Sen. Rubio stated: “Well, first, I did change my mind.  I never said I was perfect or  I had all the answers.  And look, the bottom line is, I feel deeply that no matter who is elected president of the United States we are to need a Senate that has people willing to check and balance that.”


    He later added, “the U.S. Senate plays a very important role in checking and balancing the excesses of the president.  And I think no matter who's elected that's going to be really important in 2016, and so it's one of the reasons why I changed my mind and chose to run.”  


    On if he will campaign with Donald Trump: “Well, I have said I'm not going to, and the reason why is because we have significant disagreements on a lot of issues.  But I disagree with Hillary on everything.  So it's a race between a candidate that I disagree with on a lot of things and candidate that I disagree on almost everything.”


    Regarding whether he’ll vote for Donald Trump, he noted, “I'm not going to abstain and I'm not going to vote for Hillary.”


    Asked if he’ll run for president in 2020, Sen. Rubio stated: “It's not my plan.  If it was I wouldn't run for re-election.”


    Full transcript below. If used, please provide mandatory credit: “MSNBC”


    Video: http://on.msnbc.com/28S0Efo




    SNOW:  We are back with breaking news on Capitol Hill, where as we mentioned our Kelly O'Donnell just moments ago had a chance to interview Florida Senator Marco Rubio, former presidential candidate, who has just announced that he will be running for re-election in November.  




    O'DONNELL:  Senator Rubio, you told us so many times you would not seek another term.  You told us so many times you almost got irritated when we pressed you on it.  Why change your mind and why now?  


    RUBIO:  Well, first, I did change my mind.  I never said I was perfect or  I had all the answers.  And look, the bottom line is, I feel deeply that no matter who is elected president of the United States we are to need a Senate that has people willing to check and balance that.  And that's true whether it's a president of your own party or from the other side.  


    And I got into public service to try to make a difference.  You know, obviously we had a path available to us that would have been more comfortable and a little less risky politically.  But I don't -- I couldn't come to grips with the idea that at a moment where I could have made a difference, both in the outcome of the race and future of the Senate over the next six years of the country that I was going walk away from that challenge, and so when the opportunity presented itself about 10 days ago because Carlos Lopez-Cantera, who was in the race, asked me to think about it.  We did as a family over the weekend.  We decided to choose the path of service.  


    O'DONNELL:  And Donald Trump of course beat you in your home state during the primary season.  So there are some who say you could actually lose twice because although being an incumbent is an advantage, it's not a sure thing.  


    RUBIO:  Sure, it's a difficult race.  I get the political risk involved.  The politically safe thing to do is to just kind of go home and be comfortable for a while and live to fight another day.  But there's too much at stake.  And when that opportunity presented itself we looked at it carefully.  We prayed about it, and we reached this conclusion.  


    I fully understand that from a political point of view this is probably not the safest or logical choice.  But to me -- honestly this choice wasn't about politics.  I knew what the safer route was politically.  


    O'DONNELL:  Do you remain committed to supporting Donald Trump?  You talked about feeling some anxiety about his positions and things that he has said.  Would you campaign with him?


    RUBIO:  Well, I have said I'm not going to, and the reason why is because we have significant disagreements on a lot of issues.  But I disagree with Hillary on everything.  So it's a race between a candidate that I disagree with on a lot of things and candidate that I disagree on almost everything.  


    So it's not the ideal choice, not the choice that I wanted -- I ran for president -- but it's the choice the voters have made.  And I respect it.  Irrespective of the presidency we're going to have a U.S. Senate.  And in the Constitution, the U.S. Senate plays a very important role in checking and balancing the excesses of the president.  And I think no matter who's elected that's going to be really important in 2016, and so it's one of the reasons why I changed my mind and chose to run.  


    O'DONNELL:  You were criticized for your absenteeism as a candidate and you said a number of things about what it means to be a senator, that you really didn't enjoy the position.  


    Won't that be a factor in your race?  Do you want this job?  


    RUBIO:  I am frustrated by the Senate.  But who isn't?  Eight-nine percent of Americans have a dim view of Congress.  There's a lot of parts of this job that are very frustrating.  I think everybody can see that.  And there are parts of this job that are very fulfilling.  I've said that, even during the campaign.  I talked about the ability to deliver constituents, and the Senate is a place where you can point to big ideas, and hopefully move them forward.  


    But in 2016 and beyond, for the next six years, I think the Senate is going to play an incredibly important role in being a check and balance on the excesses of whoever wins the presidential race.  And that's the part that ultimately convinced me to change my mind and do this.  So I don't -- I'm prepared to come back and serve in the Senate as it is, not as I wish it were, in hopes of maybe changing it so it works better.  But I'm not -- my eyes are wide open as to what kind of Senate I'm coming back to.  And like most Americans I'm frustrated about it, but that's not a reason to give up.  


    O'DONNELL:  You've always been seen as a bright future face in your party, and many of your supporters would like to see you run in 2020, not knowing what the White House race will result in.  Would you commit to the voters of Florida you would serve a full six-year term.  


    RUBIO:  Well, here's what I'm not going to do anymore is make these unequivocal statements about anything.  Because No. 1, I don't know who the next president of the United States will be and No. 2, if I was looking to run for president in 2020, getting back into a Senate race in the most competitive seat in the country, state in the country, at this late in the game is incredibly risky and probably not the best way forward.  


    But here's what I can tell you -- I'm prepared to come back and dedicate my heart and soul to this place as hard as I've ever done.  And if all I'll ever be is a U.S. senator from Florida, and we were able to make a difference, I'll be at peace with that.  I think we can make a real impact here.


    O'DONNELL:  So just to be clear, you will not rule out running in 2020, even though a Senate term would extend for six years?  


    RUBIO:  I've just learned I think perhaps the hard way to stop talking about things that you don't -- can't predict far off in the future and hypotheticals.  It's not my plan.  If it was I wouldn't run for re-election.  This is not the ideal step that you take to throw yourself back into the race like this, where it's going to be very difficult, and there is a risk of losing.  It's a very competitive seat.  


    So I'm doing it because I'm coming back to be a senator with all of my heart and soul, because -- and I said if all I'll ever be is a U.S. senator from Florida that's a good thing, and I'll be at peace with it.  


    O'DONNELL:  When you were running for president and we would ask you about things that Donald Trump had said or done, I know that was frustrating for you because you wanted to tell your own story.  


    As a Senate candidate you'll often be asked about something he is doing or saying.  Do you think he will have a negative effect on your ability to be re-elected?  


    RUBIO:  Well, I think I'll have to run on who I am.  But it's relevant, and I'll tell you why, because when you're in the Senate, as I just said, we're going to be a check and balance.  And so if Donald Trump says something that I don't agree with, I'll tell people.  When I'm in the Senate, if he tries to do that, I'll try to stop him.  When Donald says something I'll agree with, I'll say that.  When I'm in the Senate I'll try to work with him on that.  


    The same is true with Hillary.  The problem is I'll probably disagree with virtually everything she stands for, virtually everything.  So what we're -- what I'm not going to allow is sit back and watch the Senate fall under the control of the Democrats, who if Hillary wins are going to basically be a blank check and our country can't afford that.  


    O'DONNELL:  And do you think you are going to give the Senate a better chance of remaining in Republican hands by being in this race?  Was that part of it?  The majority being at stake?  


    RUBIO:  Well, I -- with no disrespect to the other people running, because they have a right to run.  I know they put a lot of time and energy in their own races, and I'm not asking any of them to get out, and I respect their decision.  And -- but I do believe that I give us a better chance to win.  But no guarantees.  This is going to be a tough race.  I'm ready for this tough race.  It's worth fighting for.  


    O'DONNELL:  And you will likely draw Democrats to have to spend more money in Florida, and that may change things strategically.  Do you think tactically you help the party?  


    RUBIO:  Honestly that wasn't even part of our consideration.  I knew -- I heard all the voices of people encouraging me to run.  I was obviously honored by that.  But my decision was made in West Miami, Florida, in my home in between -- as I said to some people already today, in between pressure cleaning my driveway, Jeanette and I and the kids spent some time talking about what this would mean.  


    And we had two paths to choose, kind of a more comfortable life and less risk, or the chance to make a difference both in this election and ultimately for this country.  And that's the path we chose, and I'm proud of it, I really am.  


    O'DONNELL:  Two quick questions to remain, when I asked you about Donald Trump, do you intend to vote for him even though you don't want to campaign with him?  


    RUBIO:  Well, I am not going to abstain.  And I can tell you that this is not the choice a lot of people wanted.  I obviously ran for president, that's the choice I wanted.  It's the choice we have.  


    And it's a choice between, as I told you, Donald Trump, who I disagree with on a lot of things, and Hillary Clinton, who I disagree with on everything.  And it's an unusual choice.  I mean, most years I have more in common with the Republican nominee than I do this year.  


    But in the end I'm not going to abstain and I'm not going to vote for Hillary.  


    O'DONNELL:  And finally, we know you were on the ground in Orlando.  The country has been concerned about all the events that have happened there, the families that have been so affected, and all the root causes of what transpired there.  


    Did that have any impact or influence on your decision?  


    RUBIO:  Well, it had an impact on me personally, I'm not sure it had an impact on the decision per se.  This decision is beyond one event, as tragic and horrible it is.  


    It had an impact on me personally in terms not just on the human level, but also on the thought process of what real service should be all about.  But ultimately my decision was about, where is the right place for me and my family over the next six years?  


    And we think it's public service given the challenges that our country is facing, and it's an opportunity I didn't think would happen.  I was really prepared to move forward in our lives and have peace with that, and quite frankly looking forward to many aspects of it.  


    And when my -- when Carlos Lopez-Cantera sat with me and asked me to reconsider, and  he was in the race, I did.  And this was the conclusion that we reached.  So in the end it's about as much as anything else the desire to continue to serve.  


    O'DONNELL:  Well, we thank you for your time and we'll see you on the campaign trail.  Thank you, Senator Rubio.  




  • Dayside Leadership

    Below is a note to staff from MSNBC President Phil Griffin: 



    I’m writing to share two announcements for MSNBC’s dayside leadership team as we push ahead with our successful focus on in-depth coverage and breaking news.

    Jamie Kraft will join MSNBC as Senior Executive Producer of Dayside Programming, reporting to Janelle Rodriguez.  Jamie, of course, comes to us after four remarkable years as EP of Nightly News weekend editions.  In his new role, he will direct our on-air weekday programming and oversee the dayside executive producers.  Jamie will partner with Rashida Jones, who, as Managing Editor, adeptly drives day-to-day newsgathering and editorial plans.  In addition, Rashida will now oversee MSNBC’s unilateral reporters and field producers.  Under Janelle’s leadership, Jamie and Rashida will expand on the exponential ratings growth in dayside.

    We have rapidly made huge strides thanks in part to the work of Pat Burkey who, along with Izzy Povich, spent the last nine months training a small army of breaking news producers, driving dynamic political coverage, and fueling triple-digit ratings growth.

    Pat will build on this success in a pivotal new role on MSNBC’s executive team leading Breaking News and Special Event Programming, reporting to me. Since returning to MSNBC from Nightly News in September, Pat led countless hours of major breaking news coverage outside the 9am-5pm window -- including Pope Francis’ visit to America, the terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels, and primetime primary nights.  He will now focus his talents in this realm full time and continue to work closely with Brian Williams as we look ahead to conventions, debates, election night, and beyond.

    It’s remarkable to reflect on how far our entire network has come in the last year.  The momentum is with us, and I’m excited to see what’s ahead as we go forward together.





    “Morning Joe” Beats CNN in Both Total Viewers and Demo; Prime Beats CNN in Total Viewers

    MSNBC Dayside Growth Soars Over CNN and Fox News

    MSNBC Year-to-Year Gains Far Outpace CNN and Fox News in All Key Dayparts

    JUNE 1, 2016 -- MSNBC delivered the most total day growth in cable news for the month of May 2016 (M-Su 6am-6am), averaging gains of +61% in total viewers and +49% in the A25-54 demo versus May 2015. By comparison, CNN was up just +33% in total viewers and +20% in the demo, and Fox News was up +19% in total viewers and +11% in the demo. MSNBC’s year-to-year rise far outpaces that of CNN and Fox News in all key dayparts and metrics.

    “Morning Joe” (M-F 6-9am) topped CNN’s “New Day” in both total viewers (583,000 vs. 431,000) and the A25-54 demo (147,000 vs. 127,000) for the second straight month, also marking the MSNBC program’s 15th consecutive monthly win over CNN in total audience. “Morning Joe” is posting huge gains versus May 2015: up +91% in A25-54 (compared to just +6% for CNN and +2% for Fox News), and up +63% in total viewers (compared to CNN at +24% and Fox News at +14%).

    MSNBC’s strategic shift to a breaking news focus during the day continues to deliver unrivaled year-to-year growth. During May 2016, MSNBC dayside (M-F 9am-5pm) posted a demo surge of +119% over May 2015 -- nearly twelve times greater than CNN’s growth (+10%) and far outpacing that of Fox News (+5%). Among total viewers, MSNBC’s dayside programming expanded by +93%, compared to CNN at +23% and Fox News at +11%.

    MSNBC beat CNN in both total viewers in primetime (M-F 8-11pm) during May 2016, posting growth of +95% in total viewers and +100% in the demo versus May 2015. By comparison, CNN grew +50% in total viewers and +29% in the demo, and Fox News grew by +27% in total viewers and +19% in the demo.

    Other Highlights

    • “The Rachel Maddow Show” again ranked ahead of CNN in both total viewers (1.171 mil vs. 829,000) and the demo (283,000 vs. 261,000), extending its winning streak among total viewers to 36 consecutive months. 
    • “Hardball with Chris Matthews” topped CNN in total viewers (873,000 vs. 708,000) for the second straight month. 
    • “The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell” outpaced CNN in total viewers for the 12th consecutive month (957,000 vs.705,000). 
    • “MTP Daily with Chuck Todd” delivered strong year-to-year gains in the 5pm hour, up +98% in A25-54 and 31% in total viewers. 
    • “All In with Chris Hayes” grew by 90% in A25-54 and 69% in total viewers over May 2015.

    # # #



    Below is a note to staff from MSNBC SVP Yvette Miley:



    I’m excited to share that NBCNews.com is launching a new pop-up vertical, NBC OUT, in recognition of Pride month.

    NBC OUT is the first LGBTQ news vertical created by a major broadcast media organization.   All summer long, NBC OUT will showcase enterprise reporting, original video, and a range of unique content geared towards the political, cultural, and social interests of the LGTBQ community. 

    NBC News and MSNBC have an established reputation for award-winning coverage of issues related to sexual orientation and gender identity.  This new digital home will build upon that foundation by providing a single online destination for original journalism and fresh storytelling as well as the best news and analysis powered by the global resources of NBC News.

    We’re thrilled to welcome back Brooke Sopelsa who will serve as Managing Editor of NBC OUT. Most recently, Brooke was a producer at HuffPost Live where she worked on news and lifestyle segments. Prior to Huffington Post, Brooke spent six years at NBC, first as a producer at CNBC.comand then as a producer at MSNBC.com. In 2015, she was awarded an RTDNA Kaleidoscope Award for her LGBTQ coverage and in 2012, she earned a GLAAD Media Award nomination for her multimedia report on the contemporary voguing scene for MSNBC.com. 

    NBC OUT is live online at NBCOUT.com, via theNBCNews.com homepage menu, and on social media platforms like FacebookTwitter and Instagram.







    Tonight, Chuck Todd spoke live with former New Mexico Gov. Gary Johnson and former Massachusetts Gov. Bill Weld for their first joint interview since officially becoming the Libertarian Party’s nominees for president and vice president.


    The wide ranging interview covered topics including campaign strategy, reforming the VA, which cabinet agencies they would eliminate, civil rights legislation, and Hillary Clinton’s email controversy.


    On the campaign’s strategy, Gov. Johnson noted that “neither of us have any intention of attacking Trump or Hillary.”


    Gov. Weld added, “I guess if we're in the center, we must be fringe candidates.”


    Highlights and full transcript below. If used, please provide mandatory credit: “MSNBC’s MTP Daily”


    Video: http://on.msnbc.com/1sZNcN7


    On whether their strategy is to attack Trump:


    JOHNSON:  Absolutely not.  No.  I have no intention -- neither of us have any intention of attacking Trump or Hillary.  But, you know, from a issues standpoint, absolutely.  The stuff that he's saying…I  think he's said 100 things that would have tubed any other candidate, but here he is.


    I think you hit it right, right at the top.  Look, it's just another day and it's got Donald Trump's face on it and what he said today and turn the page to tomorrow.  There's going to be something else.


    WELD:  I, for what it's worth, I would agree with Gary that "The Donald" has our number in -- in what he said today.  I mean we've never bought into this anti-choice, anti-gay, you know, let's have your personal liberties sense of the Republican Party platform.  We've never bought into spending money like there's no tomorrow so we can hollow out our economy, both abroad and domestically and hollow out our military.


    So that puts us right in the center.  And I guess if we're in the center, we must be fringe candidates.


    On the VA:


    WELD:  Well, I was just going to say, Chuck, that when the GIs came back from World War II, they had two sets of needs -- education and health care.


    Now in education, they did probably the most successful program in domestic political history, the GI Bill, which was essentially a voucher program.


    On health care, they went the other way, command and control one size fits all, government -- government operated, that's the only place you have to go.


    If that had been a vouchered program…like the education solution, things might be very different now.  And it's structural.  It's not President Obama's fault.  It's no one president's fault.


    On which cabinet agencies they would eliminate:


    JOHNSON:  Well, look -- look, I'm running to be president of the United States…so at the end of the day, Congress either submits to me and I either sign it or I veto it.  So count on me to sign any agency that they want to eliminate.


    But for a second, let's just talk about the Department of Education.  The Department of Education gives every state about 11 cents out of every school dollar that every state spends, but it comes with 15 cents worth of strings attached.


    So it's really a negative to take federal money.  You know, you've got to accomplish A, B, C and D to receive your 11 cents, but it costs you 15 cents to do it.


    So there's a great example of an agency that really shouldn't exist. 


    On the ’64 Civil Rights Act:


    JOHNSON:  Well, first of all, I would have signed the '64 Civil Rights Act.  I don't think we should -- I don't think we should condone discrimination in any way whatsoever.  But here's the distinction that libertarians make.


    They make the distinction between government not being able to discriminate, but businesses being able to discriminate, the right of personal choice.


    TODD:  Right.  And I assume that you -- you believe this, then, that businesses shouldn't be able to do this, whether it's on the health care law or on, obviously, having to do with restaurants and things like that?


    JOHNSON:  Well, I just like to apply it to both sides of the aisle.  Look, you've got the customer.  Let's not discriminate against the customer, you know, is the -- is the business owner being done harm?


    Well, it -- it works both ways.  Look, we shouldn't be condoning discrimination in any way whatsoever.  And it would require new legislation that would allow discrimination that currently is not allowed for under law.


    So I don't want to have any part of it.


    On whether Weld would sign legislation protecting the rights of the LGBT community:


    WELD:  Oh, sure.  Go where you’re comfortable, absolutely.  I mean I was the first guy out of the box in 1991 on gay and lesbian issues before -- 10 years before anybody else would touch it.  So count on me.


    On Hillary Clinton’s email controversy:


    WELD:  Except, I'll give you one more -- I'll give you one more news tidbit.  All this stuff about Secretary Clinton's use of email accounts and the report that came out and how she might get indicted, I'm not buying.  And I used to be head of the criminal division of the Justice Department of the United States.


    TODD:  What does that mean, you're not buying?


    WELD:  I'm not buying it.  You can't indict somebody if there's no evidence of criminal intent and I don't see any evidence of criminal intent.




    CHUCK TODD, HOST:  I'm joined now by the Libertarian ticket, Gary Johnson and his vice presidential running mate, Bill Weld.


    This is their first joint interview.


    Gentlemen, congratulations to you and welcome to "MEET THE PRESS DAILY."






    And I think that Trump had it nailed today.  I think we've been fringe candidates our whole life, Republicans winning in heavily Democrat states, being fiscally conservative, socially liberal.  Hey, he nailed it today.


    Thanks, Donald.


    TODD:  Well, you know, let me ask you this, Governor Johnson, do you believe -- do you believe that the best way for you to get to your 15 percent is just to relentlessly attack Trump, that really, this is about being the Republicans that Republicans can stomach for a while if they can't stomach Trump?


    JOHNSON:  Absolutely not.  No.  I have no intention -- neither of us have any intention of attacking Trump or Hillary.  But, you know, from a issues standpoint, absolutely.  The stuff that he's saying, I -- I think he's said 100 things that would have tubed any other candidate, but here he is.


    I think you hit it right, right at the top.  Look, it's just another day and it's got Donald Trump's face on it and what he said today and turn the page to tomorrow.  There's going to be something else.


    WELD:  I -- for what it's worth, I would agree with Gary that "The Donald" has our number in -- in what he said today.  I mean we've never bought into this anti-choice, anti-gay, you know, let's have your personal liberties sense of the Republican Party platform.  We've never bought into spending money like there's no tomorrow so we can hollow out our economy, both abroad and domestically and hollow out our military.


    So that puts us right in the center.  And I guess if we're in the center, we must be fringe candidates.


    TODD:  Well, be careful of the armadillo.


    Governors, I want to pause here for a second, because we've got a rare opportunity.  We have more presidential campaigns than we know what to do with today.


    So -- and you get the treat of being able to respond to what Hillary Clinton has to say.


    Let me pause here.


    Chris Hayes, my colleague, has Hillary Clinton on the phone.




    TODD:  And more importantly, back to another presidential candidate.  Perhaps this is a preview for later in the fall.


    Chris Hayes, well done.


    We'll see you at 8:00.


    So let me bring back Gary Johnson and Bill Weld.


    Well, Gary Johnson, if you get on that presidential debate stage with Hillary Clinton, how would you have responded to her just now?


    JOHNSON:  Well, when she talks about the VA, I mean I think there are some real opportunities to privatize the VA and its functions.  And, you know, Bill Weld and I plan on running as a team here.  I think Bill wanted to weigh in on that one.


    WELD:  Well, I was just going to say, Chuck, that when the GIs came back from World War II, they had two sets of needs -- education and health care.


    Now in education, they did probably the most successful program in domestic political history, the GI Bill, which was essentially a voucher program.


    On health care, they went the other way, command and control one size fits all, government -- government operated, that's the only place you have to go.


    If that had been a vouchered program at the -- like the education solution, things might be very different now.  And it's structural.  It's not President Obama's fault.  It's no one president's fault.


    But I don't think -- everyone realizes that the desire of the people working at the VA hospitals is the top...


    TODD:  Yes.


    WELD:  -- in the entire country.


    JOHNSON:  It is.


    WELD:  But very few people would pretend the level of care and the speed of care is the same as in the private sector.


    TODD:  Let me ask you, though, it's interesting you brought up voucher and -- and frankly, in -- and either one of you want to answer this and this is fine, because it's -- it's your ticket, it's your philosophy.  But in many cases, it's clear Governor Johnson, Governor Weld, that your -- your -- your mantra is to shrink government.  I think that I'm trying to -- I want to say are there seven cabinet agencies you would eliminate at this point, Gary Johnson?


    Do I have it right?


    JOHNSON:  Well -- well, of course, a...


    TODD:  No, and let me finish my question here.


    JOHNSON:  Yes?


    TODD:  -- which is, because Governor Weld brought up vouchers, essentially getting the money directly into the hands of veterans, for instance, letting them choose how to use it.


    But how do you prevent that style of -- of -- of governing, where essentially you're saying, OK, we're not going to implement the programs, we're going to hand you the money and hope the private sector has the programs?


    How does -- how do you not have the private sector do to that what universities have done with Pell grants, oh, great, you're going to get a Pell grant, well, then, you can come to this $60,000 a year -- it's we're going to raise our tuitions to $60,000 a year because we know we have this free government money coming?


    JOHNSON:  Well, you covered on a lot of topics there.


    TODD:  I know I did but hey...


    JOHNSON:  Well, look -- look, I'm running to be president of the United States, so any -- so at the end of the day, Congress either submits to me and I either sign it or I veto it.  So count on me to sign any agency that they want to eliminate.


    But for a second, let's just talk about the Department of Education.  The Department of Education gives every state about 11 cents out of every school dollar that every state spends, but it comes with 15 cents worth of strings attached.


    So it's really a negative to take federal money.  You know, you've got to accomplish A, B, C and D to receive your 11 cents, but it costs you 15 cents to do it.


    So there's a great example of an agency that really shouldn't exist.  I think people think the Department of Education was established under George Washington.  It was established under Jimmy Carter and what value has it had since then?


    You know, you're talking about education and the high cost of education.


    What's responsible for that?


    I'm going to argue that that's guaranteed government student loans, that if we would have never had...


    TODD:  Right.


    JOHNSON:  -- guaranteed government student loans, I think tuition today would be half of what the -- what they currently are.  And...


    WELD:  Going back to health care for a second...


    TODD:  Go ahead, Governor Weld.




    WELD:  -- health savings accounts, I think, are a great way to empower people to make their own decisions about their health care choices and to say these -- those should not exist is to say we don't trust people to make decisions about themselves.  We think only government can make decisions about what's best for individual people.


    Man, that is part and parcel of a lot you've heard...


    TODD:  Right.


    WELD:  -- from government for a long time.  And I'm afraid people have gotten brainwashed.  And if we -- if we've created the delivery care to the VA with some, you know, equivalent of a...


    TODD:  Right.


    WELD:  -- health savings account -- you don't have to call it a voucher.  I know that's a dirty word for a lot of people.  But the question is, should government steer or should it row?


    I've always thought that government should steer and let the people do the rowing for themselves.


    TODD:  Governor Johnson, can you explain to viewers why you got booed for saying you would have voted for the '64 Civil Rights Act at your Libertarian convention?


    JOHNSON:  Well, first of all, when it comes to conventions, I say the same thing regardless of whether I have a Democrat audience, a Republican audience, a Libertarian audience.  Oh, I think I get booed from everybody in every audience.  But I think the majority of people are sitting on their hands saying whoa, there is an adult voice in the room.


    So, you know, in this...


    TODD:  No, but there is a -- that was -- and I was hoping you'd get at it.  Explain -- because this has been a -- there has been a disconnect between some libertarians for a long time.  Rand Paul got into -- got into some hot water about this.


    What is it about the '64 Civil Rights Act that -- that some libertarians, uh, get upset with?


    JOHNSON:  Well, first of all, I would have signed the '64 Civil Rights Act.  I don't think we should -- I don't think we should condone discrimination in any way whatsoever.  But here's the distinction that libertarians make.


    They make the distinction between government not being able to discriminate, but businesses being able to discriminate, the right of personal choice.


    TODD:  Right.  And I assume that you -- you believe this, then, that businesses shouldn't be able to do this, whether it's on the health care law or on, obviously, having to do with restaurants and things like that?


    JOHNSON:  Well, I just like to apply it to both sides of the aisle.  Look, you've got the customer.  Let's not discriminate against the customer, you know, is the -- is the business owner being done harm?


    Well, it -- it works both ways.  Look, we shouldn't be condoning discrimination in any way whatsoever.  And it would require new legislation that would allow discrimination that currently is not allowed for under law.


    So I don't want to have any part of it.


    TODD:  And Governor Weld, your one of our successors in Massachusetts, Governor Charlie Baker, announced today that if a bill hits his desk that essentially is designed to protect transgender, protect the rights of transgender that he would sign that law.


    Would you?


    WELD:  Oh, sure.  Go where you’re comfortable, absolutely.  I mean I was the first guy out of the box in 1991 on gay and lesbian issues before -- 10 years before anybody else would touch it.  So count on me.


    JOHNSON:  We're the fringe candidates, Chuck.  We are really the fringe candidates.


    WELD:  Except, I'll give you one more -- I'll give you one more news tidbit.  All this stuff about Secretary Clinton's use of email accounts and the report that came out and how she might get indicted, I'm not buying.  And I used to be head of the criminal division of the Justice Department of the United States.


    TODD:  What does that mean, you're not buying?


    WELD:  I'm not buying it.  You can't indict somebody if there's no evidence of criminal intent and I don't see any evidence of criminal intent.


    TODD:  Finally, Governor Weld, how much money are you spending on this campaign?


    There seems to be an implication that one of the reasons you're on the ticket is to help -- help either finance or help raise the money.


    WELD:  Oh, it will be raising, it won't be -- it won't be personal financing, I assure you.  I would say, you know, I think we have to raise, at a minimum, tens of millions of dollars to get to the place where we want to be.  And if we get momentum and Gary gets over that 15 percent...


    TODD:  Right.


    WELD:  -- I think we could go well above that.


    TODD:  And I have to ask this last question, Governor Johnson, because it was an interesting quote that your running mate said about you, when I said -- asked him about what qualifies you as commander-in-chief.


    And Governor Weld, I believe you used the phrase, he has the spirit of the sky?


    WELD:  Yes.  I said he and I are...




    WELD:  Yes, I think I did say something like that.  Yes.


    TODD:  Well, Governor Johnson, what does that mean to you?


    JOHNSON:  I just, bottom line, take it as a compliment.  And let me -- let me just tell you, Bill Weld has been a -- has been a role model for me.  I wanted to grow up and be like Bill Weld.  And he was declared fiscally the most conservative governor in the country.  When he served, we overlapped and I took over the title after he left.


    So this is a...


    TODD:  All right...


    JOHNSON:  -- beyond my wildest dreams, Bill Weld is my running mate.


    TODD:  Gary Johnson...


    WELD:  That goes both ways.


    TODD:  Gary Johnson and Bill Weld, I have a feeling this won't be the last time we hear from you.


    Thank you both for coming on.


    JOHNSON:  Thank you.


    TODD:  Appreciate it.


    WELD:  Thank you.









    Tonight, Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton joined MSNBC’s Chris Hayes by phone for a live one-on-one interview that focused on Donald Trump’s donations to veterans, Clinton’s prospects in the California primary, issues with the VA, and the recent IG report on her email server.


    Regarding Trump’s donations to veterans, Clinton said: “the problem here is the difference between what Donald Trump says and what Donald Trump does….it took a reporter to shame him into actually making  a contribution and getting money to veterans' groups.”


    On the California primary, Clinton stated: “I'm feeling very positive about my campaign in California.” Additionally, she underscored her assertion that she is “proud to get Governor Jerry Brown's endorsement today.”


    Highlights and full transcript below. If used, please provide mandatory credit: “MSNBC’s Chris Hayes”


    Video:  http://on.msnbc.com/25zgOCi  



    On Donald Trump’s donations to veterans:


    CLINTON: I think the problem here is the difference between what Donald Trump says and what Donald Trump does. You know, he's bragged for months about raising $6 million dollars for veterans, and donating a million dollars himself, but it took a reporter to shame him into actually making his contribution, and getting money to veterans’ groups. I, of course, over the course of my life, I've not only donated personally, but I've worked to provide hundreds of millions of dollars over time to help our veterans by what I voted for, what I've worked for.


    On issues with the VA


    CLINTON: I've been clear for months that the problems at the VA are unacceptable and I have been outspoken on that.


    On Clinton’s prospects in the California primary:


    CLINTON: Well, I'm feeling very positive about my campaign in California. We are working really hard. I was proud to get Governor Jerry Brown's endorsement today. But I want to cover as much of the state as I possibly can. I will be in New Jersey tomorrow, I'm really looking forward to that. Actually, I'll be there for an event tonight. So we are, we are competing everywhere. But I have been struck by some of the challenges California faces, like the drought, which Donald Trump said the other day didn't exist.


    On section of IG report that found that subordinates told people to stop asking about Clinton’s private email use:


    CLINTON: I do not know who that person is or you know, what that person might have said because it's, it's not anything that I am aware of. I emailed, I emailed with hundreds of people and I emailed department officials and others directly with my email, as other secretaries have done. I certainly never instructed anyone to hide the fact I was using a personal email. It was obvious to hundreds of people, visible to the many people that I was emailing throughout the State Department and the rest of the federal government.




    HAYES: Right now on the phone is Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Mrs. Clinton, are you there?


    CLINTON: I am, Chris. Can you hear me?


    HAYES: I can hear you, Madam Secretary. Thank you very much. So, thank you for calling in. I wanted to, I guess, start by asking Donald Trump today said that the press should be thankful to him, to Mr. Trump, for giving, raising $5.6 million dollars for veterans’ charities. He says, what is Hillary Clinton doing. What is your reaction to what happened at Trump Tower today?


    CLINTON: Well, I think the problem here is the difference between what Donald Trump says and what Donald Trump does. You know, he's bragged for months about raising $6 million dollars for veterans, and donating a million dollars himself, but it took a reporter to shame him into actually making his contribution, and getting money to veterans’ groups.


    I, of course, over the course of my life, I've not only donated personally, but I've worked to provide hundreds of millions of dollars over time to help our veterans by what I voted for, what I've worked for. Actually, John McCain and I helped raise funds for the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund to build a rehab facility at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio so that our returning wounded vets could get world-class treatment.


    And, ever since I was first lady and in the public eye I've worked to help victims of Agent Orange, those suffering from the mysterious illnesses from the first Gulf War get help when no one else would listen. I worked on the Armed Services committee to raise death benefits of the fallen from $12,000 to $100,000. I worked with Senator Lindsey Graham to expand healthcare benefits for the National Guard and Reserve. And, have worked in every way I could in my public capacity to honor the service and provide the benefits and support that our veterans deserve.


    HAYES: Let me follow up on this aspect of it. There has been a tremendous amount of criticism directed at the V.A. for a variety of issues, chiefly wait times at V.A. hospitals, but a whole set of logistical challenges that veterans have faced. You have talked about how you see yourself inheriting the Obama administration. In your mind, is the care and the performance of the V.A. under this president acceptable? Is an acceptable performance from the V.A.?


    CLINTON: Well, Chris, I've been clear for months that the problems at the V.A. are unacceptable, and I have been outspoken on that. I obviously worked when I the Senate to help veterans and their families. I think we've got to tackle some of the problems that have come to light. I don't agree with Republicans who want to use those problems as an excuse to privatize the V.A. and hand it over to the private insurance system to deal with terrible challenges like PTSD, and traumatic brain injury, and the like.


    I think we've got to, in my plan that I've put forward, provide for the V.A. to purchase more care from the private sector, but to act more as a guide and guardian for veterans. Coordinating their care, and ensuring their health outcomes. And, I've been very proud and humbled to work with a lot of our veterans advocates, and activists to try to make sure that that if I'm fortunate enough to be President, I will come immediately with a plan as to how we're going to deal with the problems that we've unearthed in the V.A., and do it in a very focused manner.


    HAYES: Hayes, you have -- your campaign has canceled some events you were going to do New Jersey which, of course, votes on June 7th. Headed to California instead. There are people who are interpreting that as a campaign that is nervous about winning California on what is a, sort of, big, final, day, except for D.C. Are you nervous about California?


    CLINTON: Well, I'm feeling very positive about my campaign in California. We are working really hard. I was proud to get Governor Jerry Brown's endorsement today. But, I want to cover as much to the state as I possibly can. I will be in New Jersey tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to that, actually. I'll be there for an event tonight. We are competing everywhere.


    But, I have been struck by some of the challenges California faces, like the drought, which Donald Trump said the other day didn't exist.


    So, I am spending time talking citizens with, with experts, with people who have lots of good ideas. I really want to be a good partner, not just to California, but to the entire country. But, I think California has some particular challenges, and I'm going to be campaigning up and down California, meeting with people, and then putting forth my ideas about what I can do as president.


    HAYES: Donald Trump and Republicans have made a great deal of both the I.G. report on email use, but more than that, they've invoked the specter of the FBI quite often. So, I need to ask you, have you have been contacted by the FBI about an interview regarding the email situation?


    CLINTON: No, we do not have an interview scheduled.  And I just want to say a word about the recent report.  You know, actually, the report makes clear that personal e-mail use was the practice under other secretaries of state, and the rules were not clarified until after I had left. 


    But as I said many times, Chris, it was still a mistake.  If I could go back, I would do it differently.  And I understand people who have concerns about it. But I hope voters look at the full picture of everything I’ve done in my career, and actually the full threat posed by a Donald Trump presidency.  Because if they do, I have faith in the American people that they will make the right choice here. 


    HAYES: One final small follow-up on that.  There's just one line in that I.G. report that stuck out to me.  And I just wanted to get clarification from you directly in which the I.G. found that subordinates of yours had told people to stop asking about your use of private e-mail.  And that was a striking phrase.  Is that true to your knowledge? 


    CLINTON: I do not know who that person is or, you know, what that person might have said, because it's not anything that I am aware of.  I emailed – I emailed with hundreds of people.  And I emailed department officials and others directly with my e-mail as other secretaries have done.  I certainly never instructed anyone to hide the fact I was using a personal e-mail. (LAUGHTER) It was obvious to hundreds of people, visible to the many people that I was emailing throughout the State Department and the rest of the federal government. 


    HAYES: All right, Madam Secretary, thank you very much for making yourself available today.  Appreciate it. 


    CLINTON: Thank you, great to talk to you.  Bye-bye. 


    HAYES: Talk to you soon. 



  • Full Transcript: Morning Joe Exclusive with Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder




    Full Transcript: Morning Joe Exclusive with Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder


    In an exclusive interview today on “Morning Joe,” Gov. Rick Snyder (R-MI) discussed the Flint water crisis and said he hasn’t stepped down because his view is to “take responsibility” and not “walk away.” “So my answer is instead of walking away from it, you solve it,” Snyder said. “So that's where I'm really focusing on solutions.”


    On his remarks yesterday afternoon ahead of President Obama’s speech on the city’s water crisis, Snyder said, “It is a process.  And so, I appreciate people being angry and frustrated by the situation.  It's a difficult one.”


    “Actually, I want to compliment the president,” he added. “I think it was very helpful having him come to Flint and reinforce a very similar message in the fact that filtered water is now safe to drink for most people.”


    Snyder appeared on “Morning Joe” on Jan. 22 for his first live national interview on the Flint water crisis.


    Video and rush transcript from Snyder’s appearance on “Morning Joe” today are below.  Mandatory credit for MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”


    Video: http://on.msnbc.com/1T3bEbQ


    Embed Code:

    <iframe src='http://player.theplatform.com/p/7wvmTC/MSNBCEmbeddedOffSite?guid=n_mj_snyder_160505' height='500' width='635' scrolling='no' border='no' ></iframe>




    BRZEZINSKI:  OK.  Joining us now from Ann Arbor, Michigan, the state's Republican Governor Rick Snyder.


    Very good to have you on board with us this morning, sir.


    SNYDER:  It's great to be back with you again.


    BRZEZINSKI:  So, quite a day yesterday.  Not a very good reception that you got, but you did face the people of Flint, along with the president.


    I'd like to ask, though, because you and President Obama were drinking the water.  You were drinking the filtered water.  And my understanding is that water, it is a huge process for a person who lives in Flint to make the water drinkable or usable.  So it doesn't really seem like such a celebratory act to be drinking the water in Flint.


    SNYDER:  Well, actually, doing the filters is much more straightforward than drinking bottled water, because we have a problem still with the water system in Flint.


    And in terms of alternatives, there's bottled water and filtered water.  And the filters that work on a faucet today work very effectively, and they work well.


    So, what we're really trying to encourage people is, this is a way to improve the quality of their life, is they can move away from bottled water.  It has been found that it's safe to use the filtered water for everyone but small children and pregnant woman largely.  And it would be a step forward in terms of the healing process to get Flint back on a well-established water system.


    SCARBOROUGH:  So -- so, Governor, you went there yesterday.  Obviously, you knew the reception was going to be harsh.  It was.  How do you turn the corner?


    How does the government turn the corner to get the people of Flint, Michigan, believing in you and your government again?


    SNYDER:  Yeah, well, it is a process.  And so, I appreciate people being angry and frustrated by the situation.  It's a difficult one.


    Actually, I want to compliment the president.  I think it was very helpful having him come to Flint and reinforce a very similar message in the fact that filtered water is now safe to drink for most people.  That there's a program to flush the pipes that we need the citizens to participate in that.  That we're making process with respect to removing lead service lines to get the dangerous pipes out of the ground, and this will be a process that will take time.


    In addition, he made a strong message that it is really important that children can have a bright future still.  That we're putting in place a number of medical and educational programs to make sure that if children were affected by the lead at all, there's mitigation ways, steps to be taken, so these kids can have a bright future.


    SCARBOROUGH:  Eddie.


    GLAUDE:  So, Governor, could you just -- thank you for being on the show.  But can you just explain to me why it took so long to acknowledge that lead was in the pipes?  That lead was in the water?


    What took so long from the discovery of the fact to the acknowledgment of the fact?


    SNYDER:  Oh, that was one of the main issues.  That was one of the failures of government, including state government, that basically we had experts at the state still saying it wasn't a problem.


    And it really  took outside experts, such as Professor Marc Edwards at Virginia Tech.  He did a great job of identifying the issue, in fact, he's one of the key resources I look to now for good advice.


    We made a lot of changes within state government, and we needed to.  So, this is one of those experiences -- a tragic situation that you wish never would have happened.  And now the real question is, is let's fix it.


    So, that's where it has been a focus.  And again, having the president come to town was a positive step in my view, because it shows that we need the city, we need the county, we need the state and we need the federal government all agreeing that, let's not spend time on the historical questions, but let's solve this problem by working together.


    That's the way government should work.


    GLAUDE:  Right, OK.  So, government.  What about your -- what about your culpability?  What role did you play?




    SNYDER:  Well, again, lots of investigations.  But I got up in front of the entire state and in front of the people of Flint to say there are people that work for me that didn't use common sense.  That there's investigations still going on.  And if someone is working for you, you should take responsibility for that, and I have.


    And I've put a focus in on fixing the problem.


    SCARBOROUGH:  Willie Geist?


    GEIST:  Governor, the EPA received the first complaints two years ago in 2014.  There were families saying that their children were sick, that they couldn't drink the water, they couldn't bathe in the water.  Between your office and the EPA, what happened to those complaints two years ago and why weren't they addressed immediately if people were sick in one of your major cities?


    SNYDER:  Well that is one of the issues that we're going through. Again, when you say people are sick, again, it wasn't in terms of sickness, per se.  It was in terms of -- the lead is the key issue here.  And that took some time to come out.  And again, that's where the government was too slow in identifying it, particularly state government.


    SCARBOROUGH:  But -- we -- we talked about the state government and you focused on the state government here.  But again, the Environmental Protection Agency had information, the federal government, that there was lead in the water and they suppressed those findings.  Why?


    SNYDER:  Well, I'm not going to answer questions for the EPA.  I mean, the way I view it today is -- is I'm not in a position and I don't want to be in that position of saying my goal is not to go criticize somebody else about the past.  My goal is to say how do we solve the problem for the people of Flint moving forward.  And that's about all of us working together.


    Because there are multiple investigations that have happened and are happening to look at the past.  And I'm cooperating with all of those.  I hope everyone is.  Because let's get to the bottom of that.  But at the same time, the important thing is is how do we get better water supplies, how do we help the people of Flint.  And the filtered water is a positive step forward. The next step is hopefully get it so it can come right out of the tap, like it should.


    BRZEZINSKI:  Yeah. I don't think -- I mean, it's a tough step forward. You can't bathe in it, it's...


    SNYDER:  You can bathe in it.




    BRZEZINSKI:  You can bathe in filtered water, you can have filters in all your taps, you can bring bottled water in...


    SNYDER:  No -- Mika, that's one of the things. The scientific evidence so far says you can use the regular water for bathing.


    BRZEZINSKI:  OK. Well then you should -- there are some who think that you should do that.  Let me just say -- let me just ask, given that this is a catastrophe that some say rivals Katrina, why haven't you stepped down?


    SNYDER:  Well, again, if you have people working for you that let you down, that there are multiple failures, again, my view is is you don't walk away from things like that.  You should take responsibility, and I have, and the value system I was raised on, or you want to fix it as much or more than anyone. So my answer is instead of walking away from it, you solve it.  So that's where I'm really focusing on solutions.


    SCARBOROUGH:  When you and the president met before your speech yesterday, what did you talk about with him?


    SNYDER:  Well, actually, we met with the mayor also and we had a good discussion about how we all need to work together.  In particular, was the state finding adequate resources to do that.  We've made a huge commitment from the budget.  We're putting a lot of resources on the ground. We're committed to doing things.  The city and the mayor are working hard to do it.  And how we all need to do this hand in hand.  And that's -- a good part of the discussion yesterday and it was a very constructive discussion.  So again, I appreciate his visit to Flint.


    GEIST:  Governor, most of the people affected of in Flint were poor people, people who don't have a voice politically, people who probably don't have any friends at the government level or who are CEOs.  Do you think it's fair to say that if this had happened in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, that a CEO that you probably know from a cocktail party made a call to you in 2014, this would have been fixed much quicker?


    SNYDER:  Well, again, people are going to have different opinions on that. What I would say is...


    GEIST:  What's your opinion, sir?


    SNYDER:  I think I've got a track record of working hard to help our urban areas.  Look at Detroit, for example.  We've been able to show a massive turn around in Detroit.  And that took a lot of tough decisions during a difficult time...


    GEIST:  But what about Flint, Michigan?


    SNYDER:  Well again, Flint, we actually have been doing a lot of good things in Flint.  This is a tragic situation that we need to address and we're on top of it in terms of moving forward.  And it's going to take some time to heal, though, because of, again, the trust issue.


    SCARBOROUGH:  How long -- let me ask as far as the water goes. How long until you think it will be back to normal in Flint, will people be able to turn on their faucets and drink water out of the faucets?


    SNYDER:  Well I get asked that question all the time and the answer has to be, one -- it's not about picking a date on the calendar and it's not about political people picking the date.  It needs to be based on good science, on the experts.


    And the good part is we're bringing in outside experts to help reinforce the credibility issue from Virginia Tech and other places.  And that was the point of actually having -- I appreciate the president drinking the filtered water to help reinforce that message that he's got experts that are telling people it's safe to drink and let's show people that.


    SCARBOROUGH:  All right. Governor Rick Snyder, thank you so much for being with us.  We greatly appreciate it.


    BRZEZINSKI:  Thank you.


    SNYDER:  Thank you.









    Premieres Saturday, May 7 at 10AM ET

    NEW YORK – April 29, 2016 – MSNBC announced today that Joy Reid will host a new weekend program airing Saturdays and Sundays 10 a.m.-Noon ET on MSNBC.  Reid will tackle the most important news and political topics of the week and, along with a rotating panel of journalists, will explore how these issues shape the country.  The program will premiere next Saturday, May 7 at 10 a.m. ET.

    “MSNBC viewers crave not only the facts, but also in-depth discussion and analysis from a range of perspectives,” said MSNBC President Phil Griffin.  “There is no one better equipped than Joy to lead this new project, and create a place for the kind of unique discussion our audience has come to expect.”

    “We are a country of too much talk and too little conversation. We talk past our invisible divides of race and class, ideology and region rather than taking them on,” said Joy Reid. “Saturday and Sunday mornings will be a place to talk politics and do good journalism while bringing diverse, smart, and accomplished voices to the table.”

    This new program fills the timeslot formerly held by “MHP,” hosted by Melissa Harris-Perry.

    “Melissa did a show that was incredibly valuable,” Reid said. “Instead of trying to replace it, we will fill the space with something new; something compelling, and something that adds to the conversation.”






    MSNBC Dayside Growth Continues to Far Outpace CNN and Fox News

    “The Rachel Maddow Show” Gains in A25-54; Closest to Fox News in 2 Years

    NEW YORK – April 26, 2016- For the month of April 2016, more viewers tuned into “Morning Joe” than to CNN’s “New Day” in both the key demo and total viewers.  “Morning Joe” outperformed CNN in the Adults 25-54 by 16% (157,000 vs. 135,000). In total viewers, “Morning Joe” notched another monthly win (596,000 vs. 438,000), pushing the program’s consecutive winning streak to 14 months over CNN.

    While the other cable new networks saw minimal ratings movement in April 2016 for the Monday-Friday 9a-5p daypart, MSNBC’s news-focused dayside continued to soar, up 135% in A25-54 over last year (compared to Fox News at +21% and CNN at +16%) and a strong gain of 86% in total viewers over last year (compared to Fox News at +13% and at CNN +27%).  During the 5p hour, “MTP Daily” also saw strong growth in April 2016, up 110% in A25-54 and 34% in total viewers over April 2015.

    In Prime, “The Rachel Maddow Show” saw significant year-over-year growth in A25-54, up 127% compared over April 2015, versus CNN’s growth of 84% and Fox News at 11% over the prior year.  “The Rachel Maddow Show” also continues to close the ratings gap with Fox News, posting the program’s closest ratings to “The Kelly File” in two years for A25-54 and in three years for total viewers.  With the show’s April 2016 win over CNN in total viewers (1,212,000 vs. 895,000), “The Rachel Maddow Show” runs its winning streak to 35 consecutive months.

    For April 2016, “Hardball with Chris Matthews” topped CNN in total viewers (918,000 vs. 830,000) and “The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell” outpaced CNN for the 11th consecutive month in total viewers (981,000 vs.838,000).   “All In with Chris Hayes” also came in with a solid showing, up 111% in A25-54 and 61% in total viewers. During Monday-Friday primetime 8-11p, MSNBC saw more year-over-year growth than Fox News in the A25-54 demo (138% vs. 12%).

  • FULL TRANSCRIPT: MSNBC Town Hall with Bernie Sanders moderated by Chris Hayes

    MSNBC’s Chris Hayes moderated an hour-long town hall with Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders today at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia. The town hall aired on MSNBC this evening at 8 PM ET.

    Photo Credit: Nathan Congleton/ MSNBC





    UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   They said he didn't have a chance.


    SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Remember, when we began this campaign, we were 60 points behind.


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Until his message started a movement.


    SANDERS:  We're doing something pretty radical.  We are telling the truth.  Have the courage to take on the special interests who are preventing us from going forward.


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   But how does Bernie Sanders bounce back this time?


    HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I will stand up and fight for you (INAUDIBLE) all the way into the White House.


    SANDERS:  If you believe that issues can be addressed by the establishment politicians, you've got a very good candidate to vote for, but it's not Bernie Sanders.


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   On Tuesday, he'll have to prove he has a path to victory.


    SANDERS:  When we stand together, there is nothing that we cannot accomplish.


    UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   This is an MSNBC exclusive town hall with Senator Bernie Sanders from the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia.


    Here now is Chris Hayes.


    CHRIS HAYES, HOST:  Welcome.




    HAYES:  Welcome to the National Constitution Center here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, one of five states that will be voting tomorrow.  And when this whole campaign began, there were more than 20 candidates in the race.  And if you took bets when it began on who the last five would be, a lot of people would have lost money.  And one of the reasons they would have lost money is the man I can introduce right now.


    It's my great pleasure to welcome senator of Vermont, Bernie Sanders.




    HAYES:  How are you, Senator?




    HAYES:  Does this -- does this happen everywhere, like when you go to get coffee now or is that...






    HAYES:  Yes.


    Um, we're here in Pennsylvania.  You've got five states tomorrow.  Those five states are -- are Northeastern, Eastern Seaboard states.  They're not the deep South, where you had a hard time.  They're not the Plains States, where you had some real good wins.


    Um, how do you feel about tomorrow?


    SANDERS:  I feel pretty good.  I think if the turnout is high, if -- if working people come out in large numbers, if young people come out, I think the message, Chris, that we are bringing forth, that it's too late for establishment politics, that it is insane that today, almost all new income and wealth has gone to the top 1 percent, that we are the only major country on Earth not to guarantee paid family and medical leave, not to guarantee health care to all people, that is a message resonating in Pennsylvania, it's resonating in Connecticut, it's resonating all over this country.






    HAYES:  The primary calendar, uh, June 7th is a big date.  It's the California and some other states.


    SANDERS:  Right.


    HAYES:  The 14th is DC.


    SANDERS:  Right.


    HAYES:  As of the 14th, everyone will have voted...


    SANDERS:  Right.


    HAYES:  -- in the territories.  Right now, you're at 45 percent of pledged delegates, Secretary Clinton is at 55 percent.  She's got about 2.7 million more votes.


    SANDERS:  By the way, that's not quite accurate, because I think a lot of the votes cast in the caucus states have not been counted and we've won some of those states by 70 percent.


    HAYES:  But you would agree that she's won more?


    SANDERS:  Yes.


    HAYES:  On the 14th, um, do you agree that the person who's won the most pledged delegates and the most votes is going to be the nominee of the Democratic Party?


    SANDERS:  This is what I believe.  Now, I know the media has got into all of the process issues.  What this campaign is about is transforming the United States of America.  What this campaign is about is bringing millions of people into the political process.  And I'm very proud of the -- the fact that we have had (INAUDIBLE) to do that.


    Now, at the end of the process, you know, frankly, if we are behind in the pledged delegates, I think it's very hard for us to win.  But I think we are going to make the case, also, that if you look at the polling and if you look at reality, I believe -- and I'm not the only one who believes this -- that we are the stronger campaign in taking on Donald Trump or any other Republican candidate.  And I think that most of -- most Democrats out there, more than anything -- correctly so -- want to make sure that some right-wing Republican doesn't become president of the United States.




    HAYES:  Let me ask you about that because...




    HAYES:  -- and I -- I sort of share your feeling about process, frankly.  I mean I know the...


    SANDERS:  My response is then let's now talk about process all afternoon.


    HAYES:  Well, but -- but -- right.  On, and I agree.  But -- but there's also a principal aspect to it.


    SANDERS:  Yes.


    HAYES:  I mean the -- the principle is Democrat control of the Democratic Party...


    SANDERS:  Right.


    HAYES:  -- in the sense of you want the person who got the most votes to be the nominee.


    SANDERS:  Look, you also -- let's talk about principles.  Hundreds and hundreds of super delegates, parts of the Democratic establishment, voted for Hillary Clinton...


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  -- or pledged to come on board her campaign before I even announced my candidacy.


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  And those people have a right to rethink the decision that they made.  And if they conclude, for a dozen different reasons, that we are a stronger campaign -- and by the way, this is not just talking off the top of my head, virtually every poll that's out there, as you know, shows that Bernie Sanders is better against Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton because nobody gets other Republican candidates.


    Should that be taken into consideration?


    Yes, I do.  I think so.


    HAYES:  How hard do you see yourself pressing that case?


    SANDERS:  Look, again, the issue to me right now is we've got five states tomorrow, if -- we've got 10 remaining states, including the largest state in this country.  And what I'm going to focus on is the burning issue facing the American people that we have got to talk about.


    Why is it that the middle class has been declining for the last 35 years?


    Are we happy that 58 percent of all new income is going to the top 1 percent.


    Are we doing enough to address the crisis of climate change and make sure that the planet that we leave our children and grandchildren is a healthy planet.


    Are we happy with the corrupt campaign finance system, which super PACs and billionaires are buying elections.


    Those are the issues that we have got to focus on.


    HAYES:  One of the...




    HAYES:  -- one of the sort of sources of your -- of your -- your critique, right, when you talk about why the system is broken, um, has to do with an answer you gave to my colleague, Chuck Todd, about turnout in states and, um, you said something about, you know, a -- lower voting turnout of poor people, right?


    SANDERS:  Yes.


    HAYES:  And -- and you got some heat for that.  It is (INAUDIBLE)...


    SANDERS:  Why did I get heat on it?


    Poor people...


    HAYES:  A...


    SANDERS:  -- voted for -- voted (INAUDIBLE)...


    HAYES:  Right.




    SANDERS:  Look, let's be clear, this is the (INAUDIBLE)...


    HAYES:  And that -- and it explains a lot, right?


    SANDERS:  Let's be clear, the Clinton campaign has a super PAC.  They have 30 people on the Internet who pick up on everything and then they create this kind of, you know, narrative.


    Here is the facts, all right, dispute it if you want with me.  In the last election in 2014, 63 percent of the American people didn't vote.


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  It's not a very vibrant democracy, to my mind.  Eighty percent of young people, and as I understand it, 80 percent of low income people did not vote.  That's a fact.


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  All right?


    So what was my point?


    Low income people are not voting in large numbers.  I think that's a tragedy.  I want to see if we can change that.


    HAYES:  That -- that brings me to what...




    HAYES:  -- ultimately you set up -- you set up this campaign that, in some ways, cast its own (INAUDIBLE), right, because the -- the campaign is about this political revolution, as you say.  It's about breaking down the barriers of who does and doesn't participate.


    SANDERS:  This campaign is about...


    HAYES:  You said...


    SANDERS:  -- taking on the entire establishment, the Democratic establishment, the financial establishment and in Clinton's campaign, the most powerful political organization in the United States of America.


    This campaign is about starting off 60 points behind Secretary Clinton and, by the way, in the last couple of weeks, a few polls had us ahead of her nationally.


    All right, that's what this campaign is about.




    HAYES:  What have you learned, then, about what you've succeeded and failed at when you think about turning out precisely the kinds of people that don't -- that under vote in American politics?


    SANDERS:  I think it's very difficult.  I think there are -- and this is a real American tragedy.  There are millions of people, working class people and low income people who turn on the television and you know what they see?


    Nothing being talked about the reality of their lives.  They listen to what goes on in Congress, they can't for -- afford to feed their kids.  They can't pay for their electric bills because we have 47 million people living in poverty.  And they see Congress debating tax breaks for billionaires and candidates taking huge sums of money from the wealthy and the powerful.


    And they conclude -- and it's kind of hard to argue with them -- that the system is -- the political system is corrupt.  And they are saying and candidates taking huge sums of money from the wealthy and the powerful.


    And they conclude -- and it's kind of hard to argue with them -- that the system is -- the political system is corrupt.  And they are saying to themselves, why do I want to participate in this charade?


    Now, we are trying -- and we've had really good success with young people.  I think we're bringing out a whole lot of young people, to some degree with working class people and maybe with low income people.


    But it is very, very hard to tell people who are struggling now and seeing almost all new income and wealth going to the top 1 percent, that they should get involved in the political process, that their voices actually matter.


    HAYES:  So there's -- there's other folks, um, who have been running -- talking about some of those same things.  Um, you've -- you've endorsed a few of them, raised money for a few of them.


    There's a guy here in -- in Pennsylvania named John Fetterman.  He's the mayor of a town named Braddock.




    HAYES:  I had him on the show, an interesting guy.  The town has had a really hard time because of trade, because of the steel industry essentially dying.


    He endorsed you.  He says he feels basically like he's a -- sitting there without a -- with a corsage, waiting for the -- (INAUDIBLE) the Sanders mutual endorsement.


    SANDERS:  Well, I -- I honestly don't know John and I've heard just a little bit about him.  Um, what we are trying to do now, we have endorsed and gotten some money to some candidates and I hope they win.  I just don't know enough about, uh, John, to be honest with you.


    HAYES:  Um, there's -- this -- this connects to another question people have, which is about this movement that you've built.


    SANDERS:  I haven't built it.  This is a movement of millions of people who are beginning to stand up and fight back.


    HAYES:  But you've -- you've facilitated (INAUDIBLE)...


    SANDERS:  I am the candidate for president that many of them...


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  -- are supporting.


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  Yes.


    HAYES:  And so then the question becomes, to a lot of people, you know, you -- look, a year ago, I don't -- you were not a Democrat, right?


    You -- now you are one of the most powerful Democrats in America.


    Whatever happened after that?


    Whatever happened?


    You've raised more money than anyone ever, right?


    SANDERS:  No, I've raised more money than anyone ever?


    HAYES:  Up to this point, you are (INAUDIBLE)...


    SANDERS:  Oh, you mean...


    HAYES:  -- in primary hard dollars.


    SANDERS:  -- no, Hillary Clinton -- Clinton has raised more money than we have.  She has a couple of super PACs (INAUDIBLE)...


    HAYES:  Right.  In hard -- in hard dollars, and particularly in small donors, right, you've done (INAUDIBLE)...


    SANDERS:  We have -- this is -- let me be very clear about this.  I am enormously proud.  This campaign, our campaign, does not have a super PAC, does not want a super PAC.  What we have done is received over seven million individual campaign contributions, averaging $27 apiece.


    I am enormously proud of that.




    HAYES:  So the question then is...




    HAYES:  -- we have seen before, um, campaigns -- we have seen before campaigns that were able to ignite, uh, tremendous passion from folks, volunteer, knock on doors, give money, right, because of all of the things you're talking about.


    SANDERS:  Yes.


    HAYES:  And then the campaign goes away and what do you say to those folks that are supporting you about what endures from this, no matter what happens...


    SANDERS:  Well...


    HAYES:  -- in this outcome?


    SANDERS:  -- what I would say, for a start, it will be a lot easier for us to mobilize and endure if I am elected president of the United States (INAUDIBLE)...




    SANDERS:  -- because this is why.




    SANDERS:  And every day I say this, Chris, and I suspect you've heard me say it more than one, and that is that no president, not Bernie Sanders or anybody else, can transform this country in the way we have to transform it, because of the power of the big money interests.  Wall Street has an endless supply of money.  Corporate America would shut down a plant in Pennsylvania tomorrow if they can move to China and make another five bucks.  The corporate media very much determines the kind of conversation we have.


    Your particular station is owned by whom?


    HAYES:  Comcast.


    SANDERS:  Comcast.


    HAYES:  NBC Universal.


    SANDERS:  There we go, one of the more popular corporations in America.


    HAYES:  Yes.




    SANDERS:  And -- and, you know, and you've got wealthy campaign contributors.  And the only way -- and let me -- let me repeat it again -- the only way we transform this country, and this I believe from the bottom of my heart -- is when millions of people stand up, fight back and demand that we have a government that represents all of us, not just the 1 percent.




    HAYES:  So we've got some great folks here, uh, in the audience.  We're going to take some audience questions.


    The first comes from David Zakubuwetz (ph).


    He's a 20-year-old U Penn student who supports you.




    SANDERS:  Hi, David.


    DAVID ZAKUBUWETZ:  So, first, I want to say as a student, I'm very excited to be voting for the first time tomorrow for you.


    So thank you.




    ZAKUBUWETZ:  My question is, many of your supporters are staunchly opposed to Hillary Clinton and are considering writing you in, voting for a third party candidate or not voting at all if you don't win the nomination.


    I believe you will win the nomination and the presidency, but if you don't, will you encourage your supporters to vote for Secretary Clinton?


    SANDERS:  Well, David, thanks for the question.


    And let me answer it, uh, in this way.  Um, first, um, I think it is, you know, we are not a movement where I can snap my fingers and say to you or to anybody else what you should do, because you won't listen to me.  You shouldn't.  Uh, you'll make these decisions yourself.


    I think if we end up losing -- and I hope we do not -- and if Secretary Clinton wins, it is incumbent upon her to tell millions of people who right now do not believe in establishment politics or establishment economics, who have serious misgivings about a candidate who has received millions of dollars from Wall Street and other special interests.


    She has got to go out to you and to millions of other people and say, yes, I think the United States should join the rest of the industrialized world and take on the private insurance companies and the greed of the drug companies and pass a Medicare for all.


    I think that says Secretary Clinton, that for the young people in this country, you should not have to leave college $30,000, $50,000, $70,000 in debt because we're going to make as many other countries around the world do, public colleges and universities tuition-free.  I think Secretary Clinton is going to have to explain to millions of young people and a lot of other people that climate change is a real crisis and incrementalism is just not going to solve it.  That's...








    SANDERS:  And she is going to have to come on board and say, yes, I know it's hard, but I am going to take on the fossil fuel industry and pass a carbon tax.


    So the -- the point that I am making is, it is incumbent upon Secretary Clinton to reach out not only to my supporters, but to all of the American people, with an agenda that they believe will represent the interests of working families, lower income people, the middle class, those of us who are concerned about the environment and not just big money interests.


    HAYES:  There is -- there are Hillary Clinton supporters who I talk to, um, people who -- some of whom are -- are die hard (INAUDIBLE) they voted for her, they like you, they like your politics.  But it -- but there is concern that thing you said at the beginning of that answer strikes me as important.  You can't snap your fingers.  I mean people -- this thing is big and people are very passionate.


    Um, you know, you have Tim Robbins' gun event for you.  He Tweeted something today about the elections being stolen.  And Rosario Dawson mentioned Monica Lewinsky and all of that is going to come out in the wash, I agree.


    But the question for you is, if it's incumbent on her, what role do you have if and when you come to that moment?




    SANDERS:  Good (ph).




    SANDERS:  Fair question.




    SANDERS:  I work with Republicans in the U.S. Senate and I see what they do in the House.  I think the Republican Party today has moved so far to the right that they are way, way, way out of touch with where the American people are.


    These are people who almost without exception do not even recognize the reality of climate change, let alone want to anything about it.


    They want to cut Social Security and give tax breaks to billionaires.  They want to end the Affordable Care Act, but they have nothing to replace it with.


    I will do everything in my power to make sure that no Republican gets into the White House in this election cycle.




    HAYES:  Um, all right, we are going to take a quick break and we will be back right here at the National Constitution Center with more questions from the (INAUDIBLE).








    HAYES:  We are back here in the National Constitution Center with Bernie Sanders in a town hall.


    We have a question now from Becky Cerna (ph), who is at U Penn studying nursing and is undecided.




    BECKY CERNA:  Hi.  My name is Becky and my parents are undocumented immigrants who arrived from Mexico so that I could have opportunities that they could only dream of.  This has come with a life full of personal sacrifices and economic hardship.


    You propose to implement immigration reform that will create a path to full and equal citizenship.


    How will you ensure that after implementation, immigrants like my grand -- like my parents, aren't treated as second class citizens?


    SANDERS:  Um, Becky, thank you for the question.


    Uh, we have 11 million undocumented people in this country today.  Many of them are being exploited because when you don't have any legal rights, your employer can take advantage of you.


    Many of them are living in fear and living in the shadows.


    So I believe absolutely that we have to move aggressively toward comprehensive immigration reform.


    My dad was an immigrant.  He came to this country at the age of 17.  I know a little bit about the immigrant experience.


    Comprehensive immigration reform and a path toward citizenship.


    Now, my concern is that if Congress does not do what it should do and pass that legislation, I will pick up where President Obama left office and use the executive powers of the presidency to do everything that I can to make your parents safe in this country and not afraid.


    And the other thing that I will do, where I do disagree with President Obama, I will end the deportations (INAUDIBLE).




    HAYES:  All right, um, we now have Natalie Herbert.


    She is getting a PhD from the Annenberg School of Communications at U Penn and supports Hillary Clinton.


    NATALIE HERBERT:  Thank you, Senator Sanders.


    SANDERS:  Thank you.


    HERBERT:  So much of your campaign rhetoric is about revolutionary politics.  But so much of a president's job is inherently tied to institutions and bureaucracies as they exist.


    So, how do you keep the revolutionary spirit alive despite these constraints?


    SANDERS:  OK.  Thank you.


    Um, you're right in saying that a lot of the day to day work is going to take place in Capitol Hill and it's messy and there's a lot of negotiating.  What I will tell you is that when I was in the House, in a given number of years, I ended up passing more amendments on the floor of the House working with Republicans than any other member of the House.  I can work with Republicans.


    Just a few years ago, I helped pass, as chairman of the Senate Veterans Committee, the most comprehensive veterans legislation in modern history...




    SANDERS:  -- working with John McCain and a number of other Republicans.


    So if the question is, can I sit down, you know, with conservative people like Chris here and negotiate with them...




    SANDERS:  -- yes, I can do that.


    But let me also say this, and this is important.  At the end of the day, the powers that be, the powers who control -- people who control the Congress, the big money interests and Wall Street, they are not going to allow the kind of real change that this country needs, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, ending our disastrous trade policies so that corporate America starts investing in this country rather than China, making sure that women do not continue to earn 79 cents on the dollar compared to men, aggressively addressing climate change, making sure that public colleges and universities are tuition-free.


    That is not going to be done by Congress itself.  That requires a political revolution.  And as president of the United States, what I would do is use the bully pulpit in an unprecedented way to rally the American people to demand that the Congress listens to their needs, not just the needs of wealthy campaign contributors.




    HAYES:  President Obama...




    HAYES:  -- President Obama, when he came into office, had this new, unprecedented thing called Obama for America, right, where they...


    SANDERS:  Yes.


    HAYES:  -- they basically preserved the campaign organization...


    SANDERS:  Right.


    HAYES:  -- and...


    SANDERS:  Right.


    HAYES:  -- full disclosure, my brother worked for them.  He was an organizer.  Um, and that proved tough, in a lot of ways, for it to work.  Um, part of that, I think, had to do with the inherent tension between being the president of the United States and outside power.


    What have you learned from that?


    What is the model, if that -- if that seemed to not do what you're talking about...


    SANDERS:  Actually, I talked to the president about that.  And from what he, you know, indicated, it's tough.  And it is tough.  It is really tough.


    Uh, but I think that one of the most important things that a president can do is to help ordinary people come together in a variety of grassroots organizations to put the pressure on the Congress to counterbalance the pressure that Wall Street and wealthy campaign contributors now exert.


    For example, let me just give you one example and on this one, I am 100 percent sure that I'm right.


    If the young people of this country stood up and were very loud and clear that they are sick and tired of leaving college $30,000, $50,000, $70,000 in debt, that they want public colleges and universities tuition-free, and if millions of them stood up, started emailing, writing and demonstrating, without the slightest doubt, that is exactly what would happen.




    SANDERS:  So the question is, this is what the American people want.


    The question is, how we put together...


    HAYES:  Right.


    SANDERS:  -- that type of grassroots organization...


    HAYES:  But that's a hard thing to do.


    SANDERS:  It is a hard thing to do.  But for the future of this country, that is exactly what has to be done.


    Let me say this about the president...


    HAYES:  Yes.


    SANDERS:  -- somebody I love and have enormous respect for.  I think because he is such a decent guy, in many respects, he actually believed that he could walk into the Oval Office and sit down with Republicans and negotiate in good faith.  He was wrong about that.  Republicans had no intention of ever negotiating in good faith.  What they wanted to do was obstruct, obstruct, obstruct in an unprecedented way.


    And it took the president a number of years to learn that lesson.  He knows it now and that's why his pen (ph) and executive orders are flying out.  I have learned that lesson.  I will know that when I get into the Oval Office.


    HAYES:  Do you predict that would -- whoever the Democratic president, should there be a Democratic president elected in January of next year, do you believe they will be met with functionally that same attitude?


    SANDERS:  Yes.  I think the Republican Party, as I mentioned a moment ago, has moved very, very far to the right.  Obviously they are beholden to the wealthy corporate interests, but they are now also beholden to an extreme right wing base, you know, people who are active in the horrific, you know, Trump ethic, on the birther movement, people who are very hostile to immigrants.


    You see Trump talking about and referring to Mexicans as racists and criminals, wanting to ban Muslims from coming into this country.  And those concepts do have a certain support.


    So do I think if I became president that we'd run into that type of obstructionism?  Yes, I do.


    HAYES:  Terry (ph) Smith, legal aid lawyer, undecided until the issue that she is going to, I believe, ask you a question about.


    QUESTION:  Senator Sanders, I was surprised and disappointed to hear you oppose Philadelphia's efforts to bring universal preschool to all kids through a tax on big soda distributors.  Here in Pennsylvania we have a state legislature that doesn't adequately fund our existing public schools, and importantly, we also have a constitution that prohibits us from taxing just the wealthy.


    So given those constraints, I'm interested in hearing your ideas for funding winnable anti-poverty agendas like pre-K for all.


    SANDERS:  First of all, please do not be disappointed in my views on pre-K.  I believe that we have right now in my state and in Pennsylvania a dysfunctional pre-K system, which is a national disgrace.  That we have child care workers who make less than McDonald's employees, where we have parents who cannot find quality affordable childcare.  


    We have kids who are entering school way behind because they are not getting the intellectual or emotional nourishment that they need.  I believe absolutely, and if elected president one of my priorities would be to establish a cutting-edge high-quality pre-K system in every state in this country.  I can't think of many things that are more important to me than that.


    But when it comes to funding these programs, at a time when we have massive income and wealth inequality, when the top one-tenth of 1 percent now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent, when 58 percent of all the income goes to the top 1 percent, to ask poor people to pay for that, it's wrong.  You are taking money from the people who are hurting the most.


    So please count me in as somebody who will aggressively lead the effort for universal, high quality childcare, but I believe it has to be funded in a progressive way.  The wealthy and large corporations are going to have to pay for it.




    HAYES:  A follow-up on that because I think it's a really tricky issue and there are people of all kinds of politics on either side of the issue.  You know, the big soda companies are on the same side of that, right.  And they have poured -- I saw them pour millions of dollars in New York City to fight that.  And that's their argument, right.  I mean, how do you feel when you end up on the same side as them?


    SANDERS:  Look, big soda companies will do what they do.  And let me also be clear.  I am more than aware of the negative role that sugar is playing in terms of obesity and health in the United States.  But what we have got to do is to have progressive taxation.


    Look, and I don't want to have to repeat it, the truth is the very, very rich are becoming much richer.  Almost everybody else is becoming poor.  It is absurd to go to some of the poorest people and raise their taxes.  And by the way, this tax, if I recall, is three cents an ounce.  Twelve ounce bottle of soda, that's 36 cents, times five sodas week, that's two bucks, 100 bucks a year.  If you don't have a lot of money, you know, that's a lot.


    So I think what we have got to do is to understand that nationally we need progressive taxation.  There are corporations, Chris, right now who make billions of dollars a year in profit, stash their money in the Cayman Islands, not paying a nickel in federal taxes.  I intend to and that.




    There are multimillionaires and hedge fund operators who pay an effective tax rate lower than many of the people here.  I intend to end that.


    So the argument is not whether we have a high quality pre-K system.  We must do that.  The argument is that we have got to fund it by asking the wealthiest people who are doing phenomenally well to start paying their fair share of taxes.


    HAYES:  Going to take a quick break, and we've got some more from the National Constitution Center in just a minute.  Don't go anywhere.




    HAYES:  We are back at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.  We've got a whole bunch of folks with questions on the issues, and Senator Bernie Sanders who wants to answer those questions.  Do not go anywhere.  We will be back with much, much more.




    HAYES:  We are back at the National Constitution Center with Senator Bernie Sanders, candidate for the Democratic nominee for president.  And our next question comes from Suleiman Rahman (ph), who is 48 years old and undecided.  Mr. Rahman.


    QUESTION:  I want to ask a similar question that was posed to Secretary Clinton about there has been a lot of talk around mass incarceration.  Can you speak to, as president, how you will address the issue around the collateral consequences of convictions around housing, around employment, around education.


    SANDERS:  Thank you for that important question.  As a nation we should be profoundly embarrassed that we have more people in jail than any other country on earth.  We spend $80 billion a year locking up 2.2 million people, disproportionately African-American, Latino and Native American.


    For a thought, what I would propose is when we have unemployment rates of minority kids of 40 or 50 percent, that maybe it makes more sense to invest in jobs and education for those kids rather than jail and incarceration.




    Second of all, we need to end over-policing, and we need to de-militarize local police departments so they don't look like occupying forces.


    Thirdly, we need to make police departments reflect the diversity of the communities they serve.  Number four, we need to make sure that we end private ownership of prisons and detention centers.  And very importantly, and Secretary Clinton and I have a big difference of opinion on this, I think we really need to rethink the war on drugs.




    Now it turns out that in the last 30 years millions of people have received criminal records because of possession of marijuana.  And it turns out also, interestingly enough, that the white community and the black community do marijuana at about equal levels.  But blacks are four times more likely to be arrested than whites.  So this becomes a racial issue and not just a criminal justice issue.


    I would take marijuana out of the Federal Controlled Substance Act.


    HAYES:  Senator, some of sort of the knock-on effects of a criminal justice conviction, particularly a felony conviction, that Mr. Rahman just mentioned, are punitive across the board, right.  Student aid, living in public housing.  Some of that comes from the '94 crime bill.


    That was a bill that you got on the floor and said there was a lot about this bill I don't like.  You also voted for it.  Was that a mistake?


    SANDERS:  Well, it's one of these things where you have a -- has the bill had absolutely horrendous impact in terms of mass incarceration?  Absolutely.  Is that an awful thing?  Yes it is.  It also had in it, when you sit there and vote, the Violence Against Women Act.  And I worked very hard as the mayor of Burlington, Vermont, trying to end domestic violence.


    It also had in it, as you know, the ban on assault weapons.  And I have believed from way back when that assault weapons should not be sold or distributed in the United States of America.  These are weapons design not for hunting but to kill people.


    So, you know, I could see if I had voted against the bill, you know, there would be 30-second ads saying, Bernie Sanders didn't vote to ban assault weapons, didn't support women in the fight against domestic violence.


    But here is the more important point.  It has had a disastrous impact and we've got to undo the damage that it caused.


    HAYES:  Obviously you can't go back in time, right.  But you learn things about votes -- because all votes, frankly, have some stuff on one side or the other.  I mean, do you wish you had that vote back?




    SANDERS:  I wish I had a different piece of legislation.  I wish that I could vote for the Violence Against Women Act.  And I want to see assault weapons banned in the United States, weapons that were used in Sandy Hook and in other areas.


    So what we need to do, it doesn't -- you know, 1994 was a long time ago.  What we need to do now is address this very serious issue.  And I have said this.  Let me repeat it again, that if elected president, by the end of my first term we will not have more people in jail than any other country.


    Now the other point that you made, and I thought you were going there, is many people who have felonies in this country, believe it or not 2 million people, lose their right to vote and participate in the political process.  My state of Vermont is one of the few states that allows felons to vote.  I think we should do that nationally.




    HAYES:  It's been interesting to watch the '94 crime bill being debated in this.  I think in the case of Secretary Clinton, if you asked her or people said, what's the biggest vote she regrets, I think people would say it's Iraq.  I think she would say that.  That's a sort of obvious answer to that.


    What is your answer to that question?  What is the piece of legislation in the 40 years you have done this where you think to yourself, I got that one wrong?




    SANDERS:  Well, you know, Chris, it's hard.  I've cast many, many thousands of votes, and there was one vote where it was almost unanimous in the House on de-regulating derivatives and so forth.  I should've voted the other way.  I mean, like four people -- you know, I had help lead the effort against de-regulation.  That was a bad vote.


    But I'll tell you something.  As I look back on my voting record, you know, Secretary Clinton -- and I don't mean to be overly partisan here -- supported DOMA in 1996, and that is the Defense of Marriage Act, which I think she has since apologized for.  It was a homophobic piece of legislation.  Back then it was not easy to vote against that piece of legislation, all right.  I voted against that piece of legislation.




    Back in the early 1990s, when all of corporate America and all Republicans and many Democrats were pushing these disastrous trade agreements, NAFTA and later CAFTA and permanent noble trade relations with China, I didn't vote for any of them.  I helped lead the opposition to them.


    So I'm not saying by any means that after thousands of those I did not cast a bad vote.  I did.  But I will say that time and time again I took on issues and voted -- cast votes that were unpopular at the time but turned out years later -- whether it's the vote against the war in Iraq, the vote against trade agreements, voting against DOMA, voting against the first Gulf war.  Those are votes that I cast.  They were not popular votes.  Those are the votes that I cast, and I'm proud of casting those votes.




    HAYES:  We'll be back with much more with Senator Sanders and live questions at the National Constitution Center in just a bit.  Don't go anywhere.





    HAYES:  We're back at National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, site of one of tomorrow's five big contests in the primary, and we have a question now from (Miguel Garces), he's 29 years old and he is supporting Senator Sanders.


    QUESTION:  Senator Sanders, you said that you think that the U.S. airstrikes are authorized under current law, but does that mean that the U.S. military can lawfully strike ISIS-affiliated groups in any country around the world?


    SANDERS:  No, it does not mean that. I hope, by the way, that we will have an authorization passed by the Congress, and I am prepared to support that authorization if it is tight enough so I am satisfied that we do not get into a never-ending perpetual war in the Middle East. That I will do everything I can to avoid.




    But the President, no President, has the ability willy-nilly to be dropping bombs or using drones any place he wants.


    HAYES:  The current authorization which you cite in what Miguel just quoted which is the authorization to use military force after 9/11. That has led to the kill list. This President -- literally, there is a kill list. There is a list of people that the U.S. government wants to kill, and it goes about doing it. Would you keep the kill list as President of the United States?


    SANDERS:  Look. Terrorism is a very serious issue. There are people out there who want to kill Americans, who want to attack this country, and I think we have a lot of right to defend ourselves. I think as Miguel said, though, it has to be done in a constitutional, legal way.


    HAYES:  Do you think what's being done now is constitutional and legal?


    SANDERS:  In general I do, yes.


    HAYES:  One more question -- the announcement today that the U.S. is going to send 250 Special Forces operators on the ground in Syria. Do you agree with that? Do you think that's permissible, given the fact that there has not been an authorization?


    SANDERS:  I think the -- look. Here's the bottom line. ISIS has got to be destroyed, and the way that ISIS must be destroyed is not through American troops fighting on the ground. ISIS must be destroyed and King Abdullah of Jordan has made this clear, that the war is for the soul of Islam and it must be won by the Muslim nations themselves.


    I think what the President is talking about is having American troops training Muslim troops, helping to supply the military equipment they need, and I do support that effort. We need a broad coalition of Muslim troops on the ground. We have had some success in the last year or so putting ISIS on the defensive, we've got to continue that effort.


    HAYES:  All right, the next question comes from (Monica Hunt).


    QUESTION:  Hello. How do you plan on protecting women's reproductive rights in all states?


    SANDERS:  You got it. I do. And I'll tell you how.




    I have a 100 percent, lifetime pro-choice voting record. I believe --




    Not only do I vigorously oppose Republican efforts to defund Planned Parenthood, I think we should expand funding for Planned Parenthood ---




    And it is no secret that in states all over this country, in a dozen different ways, there are governors and legislatures who are trying to make it impossible for a woman to control her own body.


    I will use the Department of Justice to go after those states in every way that I legally can. I believe that in the United States of America women have that right to control their own body, and I find that, I must say, completely hypocritical for my Republican colleagues who tell us every day how much they hate government, how they want to get government out of our life, but they think that local state and federal government have the right to tell you and every woman in America what she can do with her body.


    That is hypocrisy.




    HAYES:  There's a very big abortion case before this eight member Court that is a challenge to the Texas law. That Texas law -- many people believe essentially it upheld death-row inmates in all but name. Meaning it wouldn't overturn it (CROSS TALK) how bid a deal is that court case to you?


    SANDERS:  Of course it's a big deal. And by the way, that is why it goes without saying, that if elected President, I will appoint or nominate people to the Supreme Court who number one are prepared to overturn Citizens United, a disaster and a (poor decision) and number two, absolutely protect a woman's right to choose.




    HAYES:  This has obviously been a contentious fight, on the Democratic side, although not, I think, the most contentious. There have been -- I went down in the archives to look at 2008, it got pretty ugly --


    SANDERS:  Yeah it did.


    HAYES:  -- and you know 1980 on the Republican side got pretty ugly and Kennedy and Carter -- there's a long list. One of the things that happens, sometimes in those contested intramural disputes is someone had the other person serve on their ticket or in their administration. Would you consider that in this case, either having Hillary Clinton on your ticket or being on hers?


    SANDERS:  Well let me just answer that question in exactly the way you knew I would answer it. And that is to say right now we are running as hard as we can to win this thing, and at the end of the process we'll take a look at what's going on, but right now my job is to get as many delegates as possible and try to win the nomination for President.




    But you knew that that would be my answer.


    HAYES:  Well we try.


    I've interviewed you probably dozens of times since you started running for President, and before that. And what’s happened in this campaign in some ways is things you've been talking about haven’t changed that much between before you were running for President and running for President. But you have found an audience for them that is bigger, I think it's fair to say, than when you were just a United States Senator from Vermont.


    You have also had to go out and politic in places where you didn't have to politic before. You're from Vermont. You've been in Baltimore, you've been in Philadelphia, been in Chicago. You are trying to run the Obama coalition, right? You are trying to -- you're running in the party of the first black president. What have you learned on this campaign about race in America, about the way this coalition operates? What have you learned -- what have you come away thinking, "I did not know before I ran for President, this, and now I know?"


    SANDERS:  How many hours do we have to discuss that? I mean, one of the extraordinary things about the experience of running for President is you learn just so, so much, and you meet so many extraordinary people.


    We have been -- I have been, obviously, to Flint, Michigan -- and let me tell you something Chris. I will never forget that experience as long as I live talking to a mother who described to me the breakdown of the cognitive capabilities of her daughter because that daughter was drinking poisoned water.


    And you ask yourself how that could possibly happen in the United States of America. You've heard me being critical of media more times than one, but I think people in America really don't know, not only what’s going on in Flint, Michigan, they don't know that the Detroit public school system is on the verge of a fiscal collapse. They don't know that in Baltimore, Maryland there are tens of thousands of heroin addicts. They don't know that in inner cities all over this country people are paying 40, 50, 60 percent of their limited incomes for housing, that there is not enough affordable housing. People do not really know what is going on in African-American communities where kids are suffering 40, 50, 60 percent rates of unemployment and what I have learned in this campaign, is if I get elected President we are gonna change national priorities.


    We're not just gonna rebuild communities in Iraq and Afghanistan, we're going to rebuild them in the United States of America.




    Hayes:  Senator Sanders, thank you very much. Everyone here at National Constitution Center, we thank you very much, (regret to leave) all these wonderful folks.


    Up next don't go anywhere, Rachel Maddow hosts another super town hall event with Hillary Clinton.




  • FULL TRANSCRIPT: Hillary Clinton Says "I'm Winning" in an MSNBC Town Hall Tonight

    Photo by Nathan Congleton for MSNBC

    MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow moderated an hour-long town hall with Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton today at the National Constitution Center in historic Philadelphia. The event also featured questions from the audience.  The full MSNBC town hall will air tonight on MSNBC at 9 p.m. ET following the hour-long town hall with Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders moderated by Chris Hayes at 8 p.m. ET. 

    Photos will be available here.

    MSNBC.com write up: http://on.msnbc.com/1UdveRA

    Highlights and rush transcript are below. MANDATORY CREDIT: MSNBC

    Hillary Clinton says “I Am Winning”:

    I've got 10.4 million votes. I have 2.7 million more folks, real people, showing up to cast their vote, to express their opinion than Senator Sanders. I have a bigger lead in pledged delegates than Senator Obama when I ran against him in 2008 ever had over me. I am winning. And I'm winning because of what I stand for and what I've done (APPLAUSE) and what I stand for.

    On the Gender Makeup of Her Cabinet:

    RACHEL MADDOW:  Canada has a new prime minister, Justin Trudeau.  He promised when he took office that he would have a cabinet that was 50 percent women, and then he did it.  He made good on his promise.  Would you make that same pledge?

    HILLARY CLINTON:  Well, I am going to have a cabinet that looks like America, and 50 percent of America is women, right?

    On the Issue of Racism:

    AUDIENCE MEMBER: My question for you is, what as president you would do -- what initiatives, programs you would institute to address the racial and systemic racism that still exists and predates the glass ceiling for many twentysomethings like me?

    CLINTON: // Here are some things that I think we have to do.  Number one, we have to talk about it more and as a white person, I have to talk about it more and say that we are not a pro-racial society.  We still struggle with racism—It is not only wrong but it is holding us back because for every young woman like yourself -- ready, willing, able to get to work who is held back that not only hurts you, it hurts us.  We want as productive a society as possible.  So we have to enforce the civil rights law.  We have to use the bully pulpit which I intend to use to speak out about systemic racism every chance I get -- to talk to organizations like the American Bar Association in your case as a lawyer.  To speak up and say, "we still have work to do."



    CLINTON:  Victory is in sight. 


    UNKNOWN:  Hillary Clinton has the momentum.


    CLINTON:  This campaign is the only one, Democrat or Republican, to win more than 10 million votes.


    UNKNOWN:  And she's the GOP's number one target.


    TRUMP:  Crooked (ph) Hillary will not have a chance if I'm the nominee. We beat Hillary Clinton.


    UNKNOWN:  I beat Hillary consistently in every single back performance (ph).


    UNKNOWN:  And now, with five states in play, can Sanders pick up ground?


    SANDERS:  We beat Donald Trump by wider numbers than she does.


    UNKNOWN:  Or, will Tuesday be the turning point that propels her to the nomination?


    CLINTON:  Let's go out and win this election in all five states.


    UNKNOWN:  This is an MSNBC exclusive town hall with Secretary Hillary Clinton from the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, here now is Rachel Maddow.


    MADDOW:  Welcome to Philadelphia. Welcome to our town hall with presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. I'm Rachel Maddow. I could not be more excited to be here. There are five states voting tomorrow, including the big one you're in, Pennsylvania, Senator Sanders -- Senator Sanders down but not out in the polling. But the polls today show him closing in on Secretary Clinton. Secretary Clinton is in the lead but this thing is by no means sewn up, we have lots of things to talk about. 


    It really is great to have you all here. This is going to be fun. Please join me in welcoming former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.




    CLINTON:  Thank you so much Philadelphia. I really appreciate it. I'm so happy to be here. This is great.


    MADDOW:  You're expecting a big day tomorrow.


    CLINTON:  Well, I always hope to do as well as I possibly can. We have been working really hard, I've got so many terrific friends and volunteers and organizers here in Pennsylvania and in the other four states. So we're going to work really hard until the polls close tomorrow.


    MADDOW:  We're doing these town halls tonight before this great body in Philly, you and Senator Sanders back to back. At this point in the primary I think a lot of people think no matter who gets the nomination, there is something that has changed in the Democratic primary because of this contest. I think a lot of people would describe it as Senator Sanders kind of putting his mark on the party, that after this contest the Democratic Party may be more populist, more aggressive on economic inequality, maybe more progressive overall. Do you see it that way?


    CLINTON:  Well I think that what we've had is a very spirited contest. Certainly we share a lot of the same goals. We have a commitment to doing something about inequality, more good jobs and rising incomes, we have a commitment to try to counter the much-too-heavy influence that money has, particularly by overturning Citizens United -- I think we diagnose the problems in very similar ways. But as I have said repeatedly, it's not enough just to diagnose the problem, you have to have solutions, you have to be able to demonstrate you can achieve results.


    And that's why throughout this campaign I've been laying out plans, I've been talking about what I'll do, I've been as specific as it's possible to be in a campaign, and I think voters respond to that. That's why -- you know I do have far more votes than anybody else. On either side. And I think it's because people want not just to understand better what we think the problem is but what are we going to do about it? Because at the end of the day that's what the real outcome should be about.


    MADDOW:  Senator Sanders has been asked about how this all ends. He seems to be saying now that even if you beat him in the primary it's not necessarily a given that he will implore all of his supporters to go out and work for you. He says that he thinks that they'll support you if basically you adopt some of his platform on the issues that are most important to him. He's specifically talked about Wall Street and some other things in his platform. Does that make sense to you? Is that something you'd be open to? Are there significant enough differences between you on what you'd like to do, for example about Wall Street, about the bridge too far?


    CLINTON:  Well Rachel, let's look where we are right now. I've got 10.4 million votes. I have 2.7 million more folks, real people, showing up to cast their vote, to express their opinion than Senator Sanders. I have a bigger lead in pledged delegates than Senator Obama when I ran against him in 2008 ever had over me. I am winning. And I'm winning because of what I stand for and what I've done (APPLAUSE) and what I stand for.




    Look, I think we have much more in common and I want to unify the Party, but my Wall Street plan is much more specific than his. We saw that when he couldn't even answer questions in the New York Daily News interview. I have laid out a very clear set of objectives about not just reining in the banks -- because we already have Dodd-Frank, which President Obama passed inside (ph) and I said I will implement it. But I've gone further.


    He has yet to join me in going after the shadow banking industry. So there are so many areas where I'm more specific, where I have a track record, where I explain what I will do and I think that's why I have 2.7 million more votes than he does.


    MADDOW:  Am I right in hearing that as basically you saying that there's nothing you're going to do differently than you're already doing as a way to try to win over his supporters, even at the end of the primary season?


    CLINTON:  Let's look at what happened in 2008, because that's the closest example. Then-Senator Obama and I ran a really hard race. It was so much closer than the race right now between me and Senator Sanders. We had (ph) pretty much the same amount of popular votes. By some measures I have (ph) slightly more popular votes. He has slightly more pledged delegates. 


    We got to the end in June and I did not put down conditions. I didn't say, "You know what, if Senator Obama does x, y and z, maybe I'll support him. I said, "I am supporting Senator Obama, because no matter what our differences might be, they pale in comparison to the differences between us and the Republicans." That's what I did.


    At that time 40 percent of my supporters said they would not support him. So from the time I withdrew, until the time I nominated him -- I nominated him at the Convention in Denver -- I spent an enormous amount of time convincing my supporters to support him. And I'm happy to say the vast majority did.


    That is what I think one does. That is certainly what I did and I hope that we will see the same this year. 


    MADDOW:  That was June 7, 2008 when you got out of the race and endorsed President Obama. June 7, 2016 will be the California primary, this year. Is that when -- if you're ahead in the vote, if you're ahead in pledged delegates, 






    CLINTON:  Now wait a minute. I have the greatest respect for Senator Sanders. But really, what he and his supporters are now saying just doesn't add up. I have 2.7 million more votes than he has. I have more than 250 more pledged delegates. I'm very proud of the campaign that we have run and the support we have gotten and of course we're gonna work together. I, as I said, I share a lot of the same goals. We are going to work together.


    But I am ahead and let's start from that premise when we talk about what happens next, OK?


    MADDOW:  Do you expect him to drop out June 7th?


    CLINTON:  That's up to him. I would never tell him what to do. Nobody told me -- I concluded after it was over in June that Senator Obama was going to be the nominee and I didn't want to hurt him. I didn't want to keep this going, so I stood up and said that it's over. And I withdrew.


    And then I went to work to help get him elected, and I'm very glad I did. It was good for the country. It was the right thing to do.


    MADDOW:  A lot of Republicans had verbial (ph) heart attacks this weekend when a gentleman by the name of Charles Koch, one of the billionaire Koch brothers, said that you might very well be a better president than either Donald Trump or Ted Cruz. Now I know that you don't want Charles Koch's endorsement, and you have said that, but it struck me that that might be a little bit of a preview of what's to come. 


    If Mr. Trump or Senator Cruz is nominated, I think a lot of Republicans will find them to be unacceptable as Republican nominees. If you were the Democratic nominee in that situation, do you have a plan to basically lobby for Republican votes? They're having a weird primary.


    CLINTON:  Well they are.




    It's not over yet, we don't know what the final outcome will be.


    MADDOW:  It could get really normal, real fast. 




    CLINTON:  That would be worth seeing. 


    And you know I tweeted I really am not looking for endorsements from people who deny climate change and who have the views that the Koch brothers have had for so many years, so I'm gonna stay focused on what I'm doing right now. I will let the Republicans come to an agreement, maybe it won't happen before their convention in July as to who will be the nominee because I have no idea what the latest alliance between Cruz and Kasich will be, that's for them sort out.


    But I'm gonna keep making the case to the American people about what I think we need to do right now to try to make sure we have broad-based prosperity, that we create opportunities for every American, get back to the basic bargain that I believe in, that if you work hard, you should get ahead and stay ahead, and your family should be coming right along with you. Focusing on education and healthcare and all the other issues that I've talked about and I've laid out specific plans about -- you know I know that for a long time people were saying," Why is she raising all these plans, you know? I mean my gosh, she has a plan for everything." 


    Actually when you run for President I think you should tell people exactly what you're going to do. You shouldn't make promises you can't keep. You shouldn't just rant and rave with a Trump-like demagoguery, you should tell people what you're going to do because you should want people to hold you accountable for actually delivering, and that's what I've tried to do.


    MADDOW: When you -- when you say you shouldn't make promises that you can't keep -- I know that you've reiterated that a number of times on the stand (ph), are you talking about about Senator Sanders when you say that?


    CLINTON: Well, I think that there certainly have been questions raised about the numbers not adding up for his college plan or his health care plan and those legitimate questions that people have to be able to ask and answer.  And again I would just refer to the New York Daily News interview which was a very long interview and certainly in New York people read it very carefully.  And it demonstrated that there weren't a lot of answers to some of the hard questions that were asked on both domestic and foreign policy.


    But you'll have a chance to ask him about that.  I think my goal is to keep talking about what I believe will work and I have said I will not raise taxes on middle class families because too many Americans haven't even yet recovered from the great recession and I think we can do what we need to do without having to even look at that.  Instead, we ought to be looking at making the wealthy pay their share of supporting our country.


    MADDOW: There's a lot of good people here from the state of Pennsylvania and beyond who want to ask you questions.  So I'm going to get out of the way.  Our first question is from Bob Whiteboard (ph).  Mr. Whiteboard (ph) is a councilmen in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania.  Hi, how are you?


    QUESTION: Good evening, Secretary Clinton.  


    MADDOW: Get close to that microphone.


    QUESTION: Good evening, Secretary Clinton ...


    MADDOW: There you go.


    CLINTON: Good evening.


    QUESTION: As a councilmen, a volunteer councilmen in a small borough of Montgomery County, I'm particularly concerned about how the Democratic party comes together after the primary and supports candidates down (ph) ballots.


    CLINTON: Right.


    QUESTION: Will you say what role you would trust Senator Sanders in, in the Clinton administration?


    CLINTON: Well, I can't answer that because obviously I don't have the nomination yet.  I'm not yet elected president but here's what I will say.  I'm already raising money for Democrats up and down the ballot.  I am dedicated to electing Democrats -- it's something that I've spent many years doing.  I am a Democrat and I want to see more Democrats elected from the small boroughs in Montgomery County to Philadelphia to across the country.  


    So you can count on me doing that because I feel very strongly that we need to have a vital, dynamic Democratic Party.  We need to recruit more people into it.  We need to have a bigger pipeline so that more people are taking local positions and then moving up the ladder and I want to be a very strong ally of elected Democrats across the country.


    MADDOW: Can I ask you as a follow-on to that.  It said at the outset that a lot of people have talked about Senator Sanders kind of putting his mark on the Democratic party.  Are we raising (ph) questions whether that's happening?  How will you change the Democratic party?


    CLINTON: Well, I think that we have some good examples from our two most recent Democratic presidents.  I happen to be looking hard at what my husband accomplished and what President Obama accomplished.  And I know there are some who raise questions about how much they could have done that maybe they didn't do but I had a front row seat both with the Clinton administration and the Obama administration.  And I know how hard they work and I know how much they got accomplished when they had a Democratic Congress.


    If you look at the first two years of my husband's administration, you look at the first two years of President Obama's administration and then what happened?  They pushed through a lot of changes.  They pushed through regulation on guns, they pushed through the Affordable Care Act.  They pushed through a lot.  The deficit reduction plan, the Dodd-Frank regulations. 


    What happened?  Democrats didn't show up in the midterm elections.  So here's how I want to change the Democratic party: I want to be absolutely clear that when we have a Democratic president we have to support that Democratic president and we have to show up in midterm.  And we have to elect governors and state legislatures and county officials because that's how you have the kind of broad based political campaign and the momentum you need to get change at all levels.


    Right now majority of states are run by Republican governors and we see what they're doing.  On choice, on voting rights, on LGBT rights.  It makes a difference so my job will be to make sure that the Democratic party is producing results through our elected officials, electing more Democrats and then convincing our supporters to turn out and vote in midterm elections.


    MADDOW: What's the Democratic party doing wrong now that that's not happening?


    CLINTON: I think that we are a party that is very focused on presidential elections.  That is just the way it seems to have historically (INAUDIBLE) ...




    MADDOW: You think that can be changed?


    CLINTON: I do absolutely think it can be changed.  I want to have the kind of emphasis on reaching out to voters and concerned citizens and elected officials that doesn't just happen every four years, that happens every month of every year.  And that is -- if you take a lesson from what the Republicans have done.  They're in trouble right now but they never quit working on electing Republicans, on creating the kind of base that they need to put people into office and we need to be doing exactly the same thing.


    MADDOW: There's lots more questions ahead of you.  We're going to take a quick break.  We'll be right back with Secretary Clinton.  We'll be right back.






    MADDOW: Welcome back to Philadelphia.  Welcome back to our MSNBC town hall with Democratic frontrunner, Hillary Clinton.  Let's stick with some more questions from our audience.  We've got (Evalisse Pilates) here.  She's a Democrat and she is undecided in this race.  Hi.


    QUESTION: Hi, Secretary Clinton.  I was born and raised in Harlem, New York to parents who struggled and suffered from drug abuse and poverty.  Like many black women, most of the men in my family have been in jail.  When I was born, my father held me and he said, "you're going to get an education," because like you he believed that education was the great equalizer.


    So I went to college, graduated with honors, I'm a practicing attorney and despite the fact that I'm intelligent, articulate and ambitious I face racial discrimination as a member of a profession that's almost 90 percent white.  My question for you is, what as president you would do -- what initiatives, programs you would institute to address the racial and systemic racism that still exists and predates the glass ceiling for many twentysomethings like me?


    CLINTON: Well, you are absolutely right.  We are still facing and struggling with systemic racism.  It's true in employment and promotion and other job opportunities.  It's true in education, it's true in health care, it's true in the criminal justice system.  That's why I talk about breaking down all the barriers.  We have economic barriers to be sure but we have very entrenched barriers of discrimination.


    So here are some things that I think we have to do.  Number one, we have to talk about it more and as a white person, I have to talk about it more and say that we are not a pro-racial society.  We still struggle with racism and it is ...




    CLINTON: It is not only wrong but it is holding us back because for every young woman like yourself -- ready, willing, able to get to work who is held back that not only hurts you, it hurts us.  We want as productive a society as possible.  So we have to enforce the civil rights law.  We have to use the bully pulpit which I intend to use to speak out about systemic racism every chance I get -- to talk to organizations like the American Bar Association in your case as a lawyer.  To speak up and say, "we still have work to do."


    When I was a young lawyer, I chaired the commission on women in the profession because there's also a lot of sexism still.  And even though we came up with a lot of good recommendations we still haven't fully implemented them and people are still not being fairly based on gender, based on race.  So I want to enforce the laws, I want to make it clear that this is unacceptable, I want to speak out about it and then I want to call people into the White House because one of the great powers of the president is to be the conveyer in chief.


    Bring people in and say, "you've got to do more and here are ideas that we have that have worked" -- excuse me.  "And you have to try to implement those."  And that's exactly what I intend to do because I don't want to see any young person held back because of any of these barriers.  And so I'm going to try to tackle all of them head on.


    MADDOW: Thank you very much.




    MADDOW: Our next question is from (Garrett Anderson).  (Garrett) is a registered Democrat and says he is leaning toward you.  Hi, (Garrett).


    QUESTION: Good evening, Secretary Clinton ...


    CLINTON: Lean, lean, lean ...




    QUESTION: So your opponent has been a strong supporter of the $15 national minimum wage.


    CLINTON: Right.


    QUESTION: You on the other hand have stood firm in your position that the federal minimum wage should be no more than $12 an hour.  In a city like Philadelphia, a significant number of citizens work minimum wage jobs and struggle paycheck to paycheck just to make ends meet.


    CLINTON: Right.


    QUESTION: So if you were elected president, what would you tell these workers is a basis for denying them the additional $3 an hour?




    CLINTON: Well, first of all let me say this because I think the facts are important here.  The facts are obviously critical.  I have supported the fight for 15.  I supported raising the minimum wage in Los Angeles, in Seattle, in New York City and I stood with Governor Cuomo (ph) after he passed a $15 minimum wage increase in New York.  So what I have said is I wanted to align myself with the Democratic members of the Senate who have come around to a $12 national level.


    But I want to go higher than that in any place that will go higher than that.  That's why I have supported these cities and these states and in fact, in New York which Senator Sanders and others have called a model it works the way that I think it should.  You will get to $15 faster in the city than you will in the small towns and rural areas upstate.


    In Philadelphia you can probably get faster to 15 than you can in rural places in Pennsylvania.  So my goal is to raise the bottom.  Getting to 12 since we are at $7.25 would be a major accomplish and the real difference is not between Senator Sanders and myself.  We both want to raise the minimum wage.  The difference is with Republicans who do not and Donald Trump who actually says that wages are too high in America.


    So I think our battle has to be with the Democrats who want to raise it and are on the front lines doing so and the Republicans who refuse to acknowledge the terrible struggles that people are facing because you -- at $7.25, $9.50, $10 -- that's not enough.  So I'm going to continue to fight for 15 but I did go along with the other Democrats in the Senate who did a lot of work on this because if you have different parts of the country where they're not going to move.  


    They're not moving off of 7.25, let's get everybody to 12 and then index it to the cost of living so we don't have to keep voting on it.  It just keeps going on and that way we will solve this problem once and for all ...




    QUESTION: Thank you.


    MADDOW: We got a question now from Iron Benshay (ph) who is a Democrat who says he is undecided.  Hi.


    CLINTON: Hi.


    QUESTION: Hi.  Good evening.  Secretary Clinton, we've heard some ways in which we might expect a Clinton presidency to be similar to President Obama's but what are some points of differentiation that we might expect?


    CLINTON: Great question.  I think -- I agree with a lot of what President Obama has done and I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for all that he has accomplished.  And in particular saving our economy from what could have been a great depression.  People I think now don't really remember how bad off we were.  So I do want to build but there are things that I want to go further on.


    I want to really make a big, big push on equal pay for women.  This has to finally be accomplished and ...




    CLINTON: I believe that if we start early and we are absolutely determined we can make a big change there.  I want to make a big push for early childhood education because we can talk all we want about our schools ...




    CLINTON: But if children come not prepared or able to learn we're never going to close the achievement gap.  I will make a big push for affordable college -- debt free tuition and to pay down student debt by allowing students to refinance their debt ...




    CLINTON: And I want to get the government out of the business of making money off of lending money to students.  I just disagree with that and ...




    CLINTON: I will build on the Affordable Care Act but I want to tackle the prescription drug costs and make sure that Medicare gets the authority to negotiate for lower drug costs and those costs are then spread throughout our health care system.  And I will make a very big push on mental health and addiction.  We are not doing enough in either area and we're paying a very big price.




    CLINTON: And then finally, let me just quickly say when it comes to criminal justice reform, I want to build on some of the recommendations that President Obama's policing commission has made because I think that we've got to do more to retrain our police forces.  We have to get best practices from those department that have good records.  We have to make sure that we deal with the -- what is called the school to prison pipeline and turn it into a cradle to college pipeline and also ...




    CLINTON: Go right after incarceration.  And then I really support everything President Obama said he would do through regulation on guns but we're going to start the very first day and tackle the gun lobby to try to reduce the outrageous number of people who are dying from gun violence in our country.  And I will take that on and (INAUDIBLE) ...




    MADDOW: Let me just follow with you briefly on the guns issue.  I'm struck -- here in Philadelphia the front page of the Inquirer today is half about this race that you're in and half about another shooting ...


    CLINTON: Right ...


    MADDOW: A shooting in a church in Montgomery County.  We just had eight people killed in Ohio, six people killed in Georgia.  President Obama has said it's the greatest frustration of his presidency that he hasn't been able to do more to stop gun violence in this country and I know what your platform is.  But what do you think that could get done that he has not been able to do?


    CLINTON: Well, in the last month he has come out with some very tough regulations and getting those implemented -- and I hope he gets them done before he leaves but I will certainly make sure they are -- they're executive orders.  They have to be re-introduced and signed with a new president.  That will give us a base we haven't had before to build on.  If we take back the Senate which I believe we can and you here in Pennsylvania have a real opportunity to help us take back the Senate by ...




    CLINTON: Electing a Democrat -- that the Democrats have decided they will be led by Chuck Schumer (ph) and Chuck Schumer (ph) has been one of the most effective legislators in taking on the gun lobby.  He and I work together to get the Brady bill passed way back in my husband's administration.  So I think that it's the kind of issue you have to start early, you have to work on it every day and we need to make it a voting issue.


    We were talking about people not showing up in midterm.  Well, that's when you can hold legislators, members of Congress accountable with -- if they continue to be intimidated by the gun lobby and indeed here in Pennsylvania and I see my friend Red Rendell (ph) there -- the legislature in Pennsylvania has passed some of the worse kind of legislation favoring the gun lobby.  It's just outrageous.


    And you have these killings going on in Philadelphia and it wasn't just this weekend.  Last weekend 12 people were shot, four people were killed.  There was a man executed on the streets here in Philadelphia.  Talking to somebody, running for office.  This is out of control and if anything were killing 33,000 Americans a year we would all be working as hard as we could to save lives.


    I am determined we're going to save lives and we're going to do it by taking on the gun lobby and getting common sense gun safety measures.  But we're also going to do it by addressing the gun violence culture.  Too many young in particular are turning to guns to settle disputes, grievances, resentments.  We have got to help our young people understand guns are never an answer and there have to be other ways.  And that's going to take all of us working in our schools, working through our churches and our houses of worship.


    We've got to break the grip of the gun culture on our young people because the number one leading cause of death for young African American men are guns.  It outranks the next nine together so this is a -- this is a health  issue, a safety issue, a cultural issue, and I'm going at it from the very first day.  I'm going to keep talking about it, and we are going to make it clear that this has to be a voting issue.  If you care about this issue, vote against people who give in to the NRA and the gun lobby all the time.




    MADDOW:  We'll have much more with Secretary Hillary Clinton.  Our town hall continues from Philadelphia.




    MADDOW:  We are back in beautiful Philadelphia with former secretary of state Hillary Clinton, who is joining us on the eve of another big primary day.  Five states voting tomorrow, including Pennsylvania.


    Thank you again.  This is been a lot of fun so far.  Our audience has a lot more for you.  We are going to start with Ashley Gorham (ph), who is a registered Democrat who is undecided.  Hi, Ashley.


    QUESTION:  I'm going to lean in and vote for you tomorrow, don't worry.  My question is, there's been a lot of talk about feminism and what it means to be a feminist during this election cycle, and how our feminism should influence our voting.


    So my question is, what does it mean to you to be a feminist?


    CLINTON:  Well, I believe I am a feminist because I believe that women deserve the same rights as men in every aspect of our economy and our society, here at home and around the world.  And I have devoted...




    CLINTON:  You know, I've devoted a lot of my public life to advocating for women's rights being human rights, and making the case that we have to do everything we can, through laws, regulations, culture, to change the still-existing stereotypes that hold women back.


    And I think it's also really important to recognize that we have made progress but we are still a long way from where we need to be.  I know that if you look at pay, for example, equal pay is still a problem, and it's a problem that gets worse as you get older.


    So young women coming right into the workforce often are paid pretty close to equal, if not actually equally.  But within a few years there begins to be a disparity.  And it's hard to explain all of the difference because people claim, well, women make different choices and therefore they have a different kind of work life because of those choices but that does not explain all of it.


    I was with Lily Ledbetter a few days ago outside of Philadelphia here, and she was talking about how she never knew that she was paid 40 percent less than the men doing exactly the same job in the factory that she worked in.  Now what does that mean?  It meant that her family was cheated.


    It's not just a woman's issue.  If you have a wife, a mother, a sister, a daughter who is working and they are not being treated fairly, the whole family suffers.  But so does the whole economy because we are a 70 percent consumption economy.


    The other thing Lily said which really struck me, because she was paid less, she will be paid less when she gets Social Security, which she is now on.  She is paid less because in her 401(k) not as much money was put in as was put in for everyone else.  So this has pervasive effects on women's lives and their well-being.  So I think we have to keep hammering the point.  


    I remember when I came back from making my speech in Beijing.  I went on one of the international radio programs that the United States sponsors and we were taking call-ins from around the world.  I got a call from the Middle East, and this man's voice said, what do you mean by saying that women have the same rights as men?


    And I said, well, I want you to shut your eyes and imagine everything you do.  What I mean is that every woman should have the same right to do everything you do.  And that's how we need to really stand up and speak out.  And we have to start early because a lot of little girls as they become teenagers, they begin to suffer all of these pressures on social media, on, you know, you're not good enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not this, you're not that.


    Stop it.  We need to build the confidence of our children, both girls and boys, to be able to go out into a complicated world and start their own futures.




    MADDOW:  Canada has a new prime minister, Justin Trudeau.  He promised when he took office that he would have a cabinet that was 50 percent women, and then he did it.  He made good on his promise.  Would you make that same pledge?


    CLINTON:  Well, I am going to have a cabinet that looks like America, and 50 percent of America is women, right?


    MADDOW:  So that's a yes?


    QUESTION:  (OFF MIKE) the lives of the women that are (inaudible) right now?


    MADDOW:  This is outside of our forum (ph).  Let me just rephrase the question for you.  Tell me if I get it right.  Asking about women and families in family -- immigration detention facilities.


    CLINTON:  Yes, I'm against that.  Absolutely I'm against that.  I've been against it for a long time.  I've said we should have family detention.  We should end private prisons and private detention centers.  They are wrong.  We should end raids and roundups, and when I am president we are going to get comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship.  So we will end all of these problems at the time we are successful.




    MADDOW:  I'm going to bring in Ed Morgan.  Do we have Ed Morgan here?  Yes, we do.  He's a registered Democrat, he's undecided.  He's also a former letter carrier who now works as a political organizer for the Letter Carriers Union.  Mr. Morgan, thank you for being here.


    QUESTION:   Hello, how are you?


    CLINTON:  I'm great.


    QUESTION:  I'd like to ask your plan about keeping working class jobs in Pennsylvania from going overseas and out-of-state.


    CLINTON:  Right.  Well, I have a really robust jobs plan, and let me tell you about it because it includes exactly what you are asking about.  First, we need a much bigger investment in infrastructure jobs.  They can't be exported.  They have to be done in Pennsylvania.  So roads, bridges, tunnels, roads, water systems, ports and airports, we can employ literally millions of people over a ten-year period.


    Second, we need to bring back advanced manufacturing to Pennsylvania.  How are we going to do that?  Change the incentives in the tax code and override the incentives in the trade agreements that enable people to take jobs and move them overseas.  Instead, have them bring jobs back, because what we are finding, we are finding that there are economic benefits to do that so I want to incentivize them.


    And if any company in Pennsylvania ever took a penny of taxpayer dollars in tax abatements or grants or loans or anything that they got from the taxpayers, and if they move jobs out overseas, they are going to have to pay all of that back before they are permitted to leave.


    We are also going to look at how we use clean renewable energy to create more jobs because we have to deal with that.  And somebody is going to be the 21st century clean energy superpower.  It's either going to be China, Germany or us.  I want it to be us because there will be a lot of jobs, again, that have to be done right here in America.




    And finally, look, when I was a senator from New York, I stood up for a lot of workers, particularly union workers who were being disadvantaged by unfair trade around the world.  And I took after China, took after some of these other countries.  I am absolutely committed to making sure that we don't let those kinds of unfair trade practices cost us jobs anymore.


    So I'm going to take a lot of actions that will prevent that kind of exodus of jobs and make those countries and those companies pay a price.  That's the way to change their behavior, and that's what I intend to do.


    MADDOW:  We're going to take a quick break right now.  We'll be right back with more with former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton life in Philadelphia.




    MADDOW:  Welcome back to Philadelphia.  You'll never believe what happened during the commercial break here.  Let's bring in William Cobb.  Mr. Cobb is a Democrat, says he is leaning toward Bernie Sanders.  He works for an advocacy group helping former prisoners re-enter society.  Mr. Cobb is a former prisoner himself.  He served time in the 1990s.  Mr. Cobb, thank you for being here.


    QUESTION:  Thank you for having me.


    Secretary Clinton, good to see you again.


    CLINTON:  Thank you.


    QUESTION:  I really appreciate the fact that you are now championing criminal justice reform.  However, what made the 1994 crime bill so powerful is that it was frontloaded with an investment of $30 billion, which put over 100,000 police on the streets, which gave states money to build prisons across our country.


    So my question to you is, if you are elected president of the United States, are you willing to make billion-dollar investments in restoring the lives of people and communities that have been adversely impacted by the 1994 crime bill?


    CLINTON:  The answer is yes.  And it's both on the front end because we need more diversionary programs so that young kids don't get caught up in the criminal justice system in the first place.  It also means addressing the systemic racism that I spoke with the young woman about because a young African-American man is more likely to be arrested, charged, convicted and incarcerated for doing exactly the same thing as a young white man who doesn't suffer any of that.


    So we are going to focus on the front end.  But we are also going to focus on the back end.  We need to have a lot more done to try to release nonviolent offenders, low-level offenders.  We need to get them out of our prisons and jails.  But then we've got to do something for them.


    And when you were introduced, it was said that you were working with ex-offenders.  I want us to have the best programs that are funded from the federal level to provide housing, job training, the kind of support that will enable young people to finish their education, to be able to get back into society.  And I've seen some excellent programs that are doing that.


    I visited one here in Philadelphia, Impact Services, where they are really working hard to help put the pieces together for people getting out of prison.  That has to be done at the federal level, and that requires a multibillion dollar investment.  And it's worth it because we need to be providing people with the services and support they deserve to be back in society.


    And then we need to restore voting rights for everybody.  And I intend to do that.




    MADDOW:  We've just got about one minute left.  I have one quick question to ask.  I'm taking personal privilege and asking it myself.  We have not had a president or vice president who has had significant military experience since George H.W. Bush in 1992.  I know you don't want to get ahead of yourself while you are still in this primary, but is military experience something that you would consider to be a political asset in a potential running mate?


    CLINTON:  Well, of course.  I mean, I think that our military serves was such distinction on behalf of our country.  Over the years as a senator and secretary of state I've gotten to know, you know, people at all ranks, particularly leaders of the various services.  So yes, of course it's an asset.


    And in the kind of complex, dangerous world we find ourselves in, we need all sorts of talent and experience.  So whether it's in a vice president or members of the cabinet or in the White House staff, I want as broad a set of experiences that I can possibly draw together because I'm someone who likes to listen to, you know, people who come at problems from different perspectives, even argue among themselves about it, because I think we get to a better solution.  And that would certainly be how I would go about it.


    MADDOW:  Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.  Thank you so much for making time to be with us today.


    CLINTON:  You're welcome.




    MADDOW:  Thank you (inaudible) in Philadelphia.  I want to thank our great audience at the National Constitution Center here in Philadelphia.  It's been a great night.




  • FULL TRANSCRIPT: MSNBC Town Hall with Gov. John Kasich Moderated By Chris Matthews

     FULL TRANSCRIPT: MSNBC Town Hall with Gov. John Kasich Moderated By Chris Matthews 

    MSNBC’s Chris Matthews moderated an hour-long town hall with Republican presidential candidate Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) today for Long Islanders in Jericho, New York. The event also featured questions from the audience.  The full Kasich Town Hall will air tonight on MSNBC at 7 p.m. ET followed by the Cruz Town Hall moderated by Chuck Todd at 8 p.m. ET. 

    Photos will be available here. Below is a rush transcript of the town hall.

    NBCNews.com write up: http://nbcnews.to/1qskR0e

    Photo credit: Brian Ach for MSNBC






    ANNOUNCER:  Donald Trump's biggest rival is Ted Cruz.


    CRUZ:  There's only one campaign that has beaten Donald Trump over and over again.


    ANNOUNCER:  But John Kasich may be Trump's biggest problem.


    KASICH:  Nobody is going to have enough delegates to go to the convention and win on the first ballot.


    TRUMP:  Kasich shouldn't be allowed to continue, and the RNC shouldn't allow him to continue.


    KASICH:  Donald Trump has created a toxic environment.


    ANNOUNCER:  Could a strong finish in New York give Kasich real momentum?


    KASICH:  These people think I'm going to drop out.  What are they, nuts?


    ANNOUNCER:  Can he be more than just a spoiler at the convention?


    KASICH:  Great leaders don't divide people.  Great leaders respect the differences that exist in one another.


    ANNOUNCER:  This is an MSNBC exclusive town hall with Governor John Kasich from the (ph) Milleri Gym in Jericho, New York, here now is Chris Matthews.




    MATTHEWS:  Good evening, and welcome to an MSNBC exclusive town hall.  Please welcome tonight, for the full hour, Ohio Governor and Republican presidential candidate, John Kasich.  (applause)  Thank you, governor.  Two days ago in New York, with the Republican Women's Club, you talked about fear and anger out there and how certain candidates opposing you have been exploiting it for their own fame and to gain attention.  What were you talking about and who were you talking about?


    KASICH:  Well, I was talking about Trump and Cruz, primarily.  (laughter)


    MATTHEWS:  You didn't say that then.  Now you're saying it.


    KASICH:  Well, look, here's some of the menu that they've offered.  We're going to have surveillance over some neighborhoods.  We're going to ban people based on a religious test.  We're going to use nuclear weapons in Europe, and we're going to get rid of NATO, we're going to let Russia kind of run Europe -- here's the problem, Chris, this is what bothers me.  Do we have problems?  Yes.  Of course we do.  People are worried about their jobs, they're worried they don't have good wages, they put their money in the bank, they get no interest, and what they're really worried about is their kid went to school and is still living with them, can't find a job.  I mean seriously can't find a job.  


    Now, are those as serious problem as the Depression?  As the Second World War?  As the attacks on 9/11?  I don't think so.  They're serious, but you can either get people and drive them into a ditch and feed on their anxiety, gnashing of teeth -- this person did this to me, or you can walk into a room and you can acknowledge the problem and you can try to give people an answer.  Have a little hope.  Tell them they can be solved, because these things can be fixed, and they're not even that difficult to fix.  It's just that people have to remember, they're Americans before they're Republicans and Democrats and we've got to fix the country.  That's all.


    MATTHEWS:  So, the fear is real, the anger is real.  Why are they all voting -- 15 million people, if you count up all the votes in the primaries, voting for Trump and Cruz, the guys you say are exploiting it?  Why are they getting the votes?


    KASICH:  Well, look.  I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood, as you know.  I understand these fears, and frankly, people think, if a politician's lips are moving, they're lying.  So it's been incumbent on me -- people say, why does he keep talking about his record?  I talk about my record because I think if you can show you did it a couple of times, you actually fixed things, then you have credibility for doing it the third time.  But I think people have just kind of had it.  Here's another thing they say -- I hate political correctness.  OK, I get that, but we don't want to get rude.  That's not where the country should head.  And I tell you, they got all the publicity, too.  I mean, Trump, are you kidding me?  He's like up there all the time and he just caught a wave, and I think it was the first debate, I said, don't dismiss what this guy says, it's serious.  But, I think now that people are beginning to hear a little bit of a message that we have, we continue to do better.  


    Here's the way it kind of looks right now in the three man race.  There's Coke, there's Pepsi, and there's Kasich, OK?  (applause)  You're not supposed to clap for that, you're supposed to cry when I say that, OK?  And then there's the other part of it.  Now, it's kind of like, Coke, Pepsi, Kasich, and you're shopping with your spouse and you're looking at what you're going to buy and people are beginning to realize there is this un-cola called Kasich but they still don't know enough about me.  And so I've been playing from behind the whole time, but you know what's amazing?  I'm still standing.  There were 17 of us and now we're down to 3.  (applause)


    MATTHEWS:  Let's talk about -- we're not going to get rid of fear and we're not going to get rid of anger because it's justified, so how does John Kasich, that third brand, deal with -- let's talk about a couple things.  Is illegal immigration, mainly from Latin America -- is that a real problem or not?


    KASICH:  No, I think it is, I mean it is for --


    MATTHEWS:  Well, what are you going to do about it?


    KASICH:  Well, we need to make sure -- in '86, Reagan had a plan --


    MATTHEWS:  I know.  It was never enforced.


    KASICH:  It wasn't enforced, so we've got to enforce it, and we've got to say, you can't just walk into this country willy nilly.  I mean, we lock our doors at night so people just don't walk into our homes.  They shouldn't be able to walk into our country.  So it is an issue of laws.  It's also becoming more and more a national security issue.  So let's control the border, and then we can have a guest worker program where people come in, work, and go back, and for the 11.5 million that are here, we're not going to go yanking them out of their home and deporting them.


    MATTHEWS:  Yes, but let's talk about (INAUDIBLE) who's coming here illegally.  We have people here, we're probably not going to deport 12 million people or 11 million people.  But there's probably a fellow down in Mexico now or in Salvador somewhere, hears there's a job open because his cousin tells him about it, he calls him up and says, I've got a job and a kitchen up here in Chicago.  You get up here, you've got a job.  It's all below the counter, it's off the books.  As long as people hire people illegally in this country, people are going to come to this country illegally.  No matter how many walls you've got or no matter what, they'll get here.  You'd get here and I'd get here.  So what are we going to do about the business man who hires to get cheap labor?  What are we going to do about that guy?  Are we going to put him in jail?


    KASICH:  We're going to have to hold him accountable --


    MATTHEWS:  How do we do that?  How do we make him fear hiring a guy illegally?


    KASICH:  Well no, I'll tell you what you do, you fine them.


    MATTHEWS:  You really think that would stop them?


    KASICH:  Let me tell you something.  Small businesses, whether it's construction industry or whether it's the service industry -- there's not big margins.  They work on small margins, and we just have to have a system that says -- 


    MATTHEWS:  Do you like (ph) e-verify?  Do you like it?


    KASICH:  From what I know about it.  But let me just tell you this -- we pay our taxes.  We're going to pay our taxes.  I already paid mine last week, OK?  So we're going to pay our taxes.  Why do people pay their taxes?  Because they have a sense that if they don't, they might get caught, and beyond that -- well, I'm saying, what we're driving at is, what would keep people -- why would you have compliance?  Well, because there is a certain sense, like, I don't want the IRS coming after me, and that's not -- people feel they've got to pay their taxes.  Most employers don't want to hire illegals, but if you put a consequence --


    MATTHEWS:  They don't want to hire illegals, even though they get the most work out of them and it's the cheapest money?


    KASICH:  I'm saying they -- most don't, come on?


    MATTHEWS:  Then why do they do it?


    KASICH:  OK, MSNBC, you guys hire illegals?


    MATTHEWS:  No, I'm talking about --


    KASICH:  No, I'm talking to you.  (applause)


    MATTHEWS:  And you think we do?  Is that a charge?


    KASICH:  Yes, it's a charge.


    MATTHEWS:  And what's your basis for making that charge?


    KASICH:  Well, because I've talked to people and they tell me this is what's going on.


    MATTHEWS:  Let's get back to serious.


    KASICH:  What I'm saying is -- let me finish.  I'm saying most employers wouldn't want to do that, some do.  And compliance, where they know there's a fine --


    MATTHEWS:  OK, why'd your party not pass the comprehensive immigration reform bill?  It's got e-verify in it and a whole good stuff, 12 Republican senators backed it, and the house speaker wouldn't bring it up.  He wouldn't even let it come to a vote.  Why don't you bring it to a vote?


    KASICH:  Can I give you an answer?  I'm serious.  Because I'm not president.  If I was president, they'd bring it up.


    MATTHEWS:  If you were speaker, would you have brought it up?


    KASICH:  Would I have brought it up?  I don't know --


    MATTHEWS:  Would you bring out votes if most people wanted to vote for it?


    KASICH:  I would say -- look, I'm not speaker, Chris, but I was budget chairman.  You want to talk about --


    MATTHEWS:  I just want to know why we can't get stuff done.


    KASICH:  Well you know why?  Because everybody's polarized.  We know that.


    MATTHEWS:  I know that.  Including your party.  


    KASICH:  Look, I said that there's two things that have been happening lately.  One is, so the President does these executive orders, bypasses congress, bad idea --


    MATTHEWS:  Maybe because he can't get a vote in congress.


    KASICH:  Can I just finish this train of thought?


    MATTHEWS:  It's all part of this argument you're in.  Blame the other party when in fact your party won't bring these matters to a vote.


    KASICH:  You didn't let me finish.


    MATTHEWS:  Go ahead.  I think I did, but go ahead.


    KASICH:  No, you didn't!  Here's what I was saying.  The President did these things, but then we had a Republican who went to the State of the Union, and when the President of the United States was talking, he shouted, you lie.  OK?  It's pops on both houses.  First of all, I said we're Americans before Republicans and Democrats.  You know what one of my 16-year-old daughters said the other night, she said, we live in the United States of America, not in the Divided States of America.  And the fact is, it's leadership, Chris!  It's leadership.


    MATTHEWS:  Just so you get the sequence right, I'm not here to defend Obama on this because I don't like these executive orders, but he did it after the Republican speaker wouldn't bring up a comprehensive immigration bill, so we get this thing behind us.


    KASICH:  Chris, look, I've just got to tell you, for a long time, now, they have not been able to communicate.


    MATTHEWS:  I agree with that.  What happened?  Why did it stop?


    KASICH:  Let me tell you a story.  I'm going to tell you a really good story.  It's never been told before.  I got a call from Boehner.  He said, I want you to come play golf with the President, the Vice President.  So we go out, we get there, Biden's like been out there for two hours practicing, and he's all lathered up and everything, and Boehner takes Obama, I take Biden -- after the first ball, I never saw Joe, he's in the woods the whole time.  But --


    MATTHEWS:  See what you're --


    KASICH:  I love Biden, OK?  He's a good guy.  I don't agree with him but I like him and look, say this about him -- that guy has been through some hell with the loss of his son, with the accident where he lost his wife, and I think a child -- I mean, and he's been a great public servant.  I don't agree with him, but I like him, OK?  So we get done playing and we're supposedly having a soft drink, but we were drinking beer, let's be clear about it, OK?  And I looked at John Boehner, I said, Boehner, can you believe it, that you're the speaker of the house?  I mean, your dad owned a bar, you had like I don't know how many brothers and sisters, and you're the speaker.  I said, give me a break.  And I said, Joe, you, vice president?  Are you kidding me?  And then I looked at them, I said, and me, I'm the Governor of Ohio.  Me, the Governor, and you, you, Mr. President?  You?  Come on.  I said, clearly the Lord wanted us to be here, so we better do something while we're here.  And the President looked at Boehner and he said, you come down to the White House and we'll start talking about the budget.  And right after that, they started talking.  Now the thing fell apart.  I don't know why it fell apart, but there was a moment there where there was a connection.  And you know what, Chris?  You know this from the experience you had -- where there's a will, there's a way, and we have to get people to ride their performance to a level where they want to help America.  They want to fix Social Security.  They want to create economic growth.  They want to --


    MATTHEWS:  I'll tell you, you've been very clear in the last two days, especially with the Republican Women's Group the other day about, there are two paths that your party could take, and one is the dark path and one is your path.  But it reminded me of Robert Frost.  Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, we all learned that in school.  But the problem is, you're taking the road less traveled by, that's the problem.  You're taking a road of openness and agreement and negotiation and most of the voters out there in your party, 15 million I said, 3 million voted for you so far, how do you come out ahead in this at the convention?  How do you get out and become the nominee between now and July?


    KASICH:  Well, I'm studying how Lincoln got there.  He was like fourth or whatever and he got picked, but -- (applause)


    MATTHEWS:  I knew Lincoln.


    KASICH:  I almost pulled that on Ted but I stopped.  I knew Reagan -- but Chris, look.  We keep talking about the primary.  Now, you win a primary, you lose a general, what's the point?  What, do you hang a certificate on your wall?  I'm the only one that consistently beats Hillary and then yesterday, did you see that little thing they did, 40,000 people they surveyed, and they did the electoral college?  Hillary decisively beats Cruz and Trump and I decisively beat her.  And there's a reason.  Look, the reason is, I can appeal to the blue collar workers and I can appeal to the independents, or my team can, and we have a proven record of success of solving problems.  I don't want to operate in the negative.


    MATTHEWS:  OK, look, you go into Cleveland, it's in your state, and everybody knows Republicans don't win presidential elections without Ohio.  It never happened.  It's the one state your party needs.  Obviously -- but you get to the convention, suppose Trump doesn't get even 1,100, he's nowhere near.  He doesn't get the gimme.  He doesn't get to 1,237.


    KASICH:  Well he's not going to, we know that.


    MATTHEWS:  OK, but that doesn't happen.  That's the first step to you getting the nomination.  You get there and all the sudden, Trump starts making speeches, which he's already begun to make.  If I don't get this thing, it's been fixed, and I'm walking.  Or running third party, we don't know what he's going to do, but he will blow his stack, and he will say one word to you and you've got to respond to it, so I'll say it to you now -- democracy.  He got the most votes.  Shouldn't he be the nominee over somebody who got 1/5 the number of votes or 1/3 the number of votes?


    KASICH:  Great point.  There's only one problem with that.  We know that to get an A, you need to make a 90.  So somebody makes an 83 and says, you know what, I did better than everybody else, I should get an A -- no, no, no, you didn't get to 90.  Now let me say another thing about conventions.


    MATTHEWS:  Why do you apply that rule when in every sport we fight in this country, the team that gets the most points in basketball, wins?  The baseball team that gets the most runs wins.


    KASICH:  Right, once you finish the fourth quarter.  And once you finish nine innings.  We're not done yet.  So there's -- because -- (applause)  because --


    MATTHEWS:  Every election that's ever been held in this country, they don't say, you didn't hit 33 million.  All you have to do is get one more vote than the other guy.


    KASICH:  Not true.  You ever heard of this thing called the electoral college?  OK, so I can throw that argument right back on you.


    MATTHEWS:  So you think you can beat the word democracy?


    KASICH:  You want to abolish the electoral college?  Well, now this is Al Gore's argument.  He wasn't president.  Bush did, he won the electoral college.  


    MATTHEWS:  Somehow I think the Democrats are more docile than the people for Trump.  I don't see the people for Trump saying, oh, I guess we lost.  We're going home.  I don't think they're going to be like that.


    KASICH:  Let me tell you something.  There are people who are for Trump who are really not for Trump.  You know that.  Here in New York --


    MATTHEWS:  I don't know that.


    KASICH:  Yes you do.


    MATTHEWS:  What is this big conversion?  You get to Cleveland, and all the delegates that got there because of Trump or got there because of Cruz, they're going to say, something's just come over me.  Kasich, Kasich, I'm going to vote for Kasich.  How's that going to happen?


    KASICH:  I'm going to tell you how it's going to happen.  Because first of all, the Trump voters are comfortable with me, and the more they know me, the more they like me.  You know why?  Because I grew up more like them than Trump did, OK?


    MATTHEWS:  That's an argument?  But you haven't convinced them.


    KASICH:  They don't know me yet, Chris!  


    MATTHEWS:  When are they going to know you?


    KASICH:  When you keep putting me on TV.


    MATTHEWS:  It's April.  We're getting close.


    KASICH:  Yes, but here's the thing -- remember the Coke, Pepsi, and Kasich?  Now, it's starting -- people are beginning to say -- a lady came up to me in New York the last Saturday, she said, I need to take a picture with you.  I said, why's that?  She says, well, because I was for Kasich before it was cool to be for Kasich.  And that's starting to turn.  Now, let me tell you what happens up there.  When people become delegates, they assume -- there's a gravity that sets in.  They realize they're picking somebody who can be president and somebody who has to win.  And I think, at the end of the day, when they're there, they take on a different role, and who are the delegates going to be?  A lot of them are going to be people who worked in the party vineyards for 40 years, and so I think it's very possible.  Now it'll be up to me to convince the delegation to --


    MATTHEWS:  To overrule the voters.


    KASICH:  We're not overruling anybody.  You've got to get the magic number.  I mean, what are you, kidding me?  You know this!


    MATTHEWS:  I made my point and you've answered the question.


    KASICH:  You didn't make a very good point.  I made a good point.  (applause)


    MATTHEWS:  I'm letting you do this.  Let's go to the first question.  Let's go, from the audience, the people here.


    STEVE YOUNG:  Hi, my name is Steve Young, and welcome to Jericho.  I am a local resident and it's a pleasure to have the opportunity to talk to you.  Chris Matthew has trumped -- I don't want to say Trump, but he has trumped my -- what I was going to ask, because you're talking a lot about the number of votes -- and all of that, and I hate to say it, but a lot of us Coke drinkers are not going to switch to the un-cola and that's why Coke is so popular.  Don't you feel at some point that you have a responsibility to voters to recognize the fact that they're not voting for you?  I know, you keep saying, and I'm listening to you say, well, people are jumping on your bandwagon.  Well what if they don't jump on your bandwagon?  Are you just going to be comfortable going into a convention -- it looks like it's going to be chaotic and really a problem, and you're going to be comfortable --


    KASICH:  Who told you that?


    YOUNG:  The media.


    KASICH:  They haven't been right about one single thing they've said.  (applause)  But anyway, let me answer the question.


    YOUNG:  I'm watching the primaries.  I'm watching primary results, and I will tell you, I was very interested in your campaign from day one.  You're not new to this, and it just hasn't resonated, and at some point, I mean, who told you that you're all that popular now when the vote -- we're looking at the New York polls, and your vote is really not where it needs to be, and at some point, are you going to recognize that?  Because I do think that there is some responsibility to democracy.


    KASICH:  Yes, let me tell you what the responsibility is.  The responsibility is to run for an office and give people solutions and lift them.  The responsibility is not to talk about dividing people, gnashing teeth, turning them against one another.  I will not participate in that, OK, sir?  Now, now -- (applause)  Now let me tell you this.  If I don't win, I'll be a gentleman.  I'm not going to say that my people are going to walk out.  I'm not going to say any of the things that I've heard said either by him or by other people.  You see, it's important that people hear the message that they matter, that they have a God given purpose, that they need to solve problems in their neighborhood -- come to the town halls and see what happens there.  It's important.  It is important for people to hear a different message than the message of negativity.  I want to give them a message of hope, and you know what?  We're in New York, and there was this guy, he once said, one time, it ain't over until it's over, and this may happen to be Yogi Bear, but thank you.


    MATTHEWS:  OK, thank you.  I think you made your point.


    YOUNG:  I just want to tell you, I really appreciate the way you're approaching this, however, we often need to look at the vote.  So thank you for --


    KASICH:  God bless you.  I appreciate you.  See you in Cleveland.


    MATTHEWS:  OK, how'd you like that?  Much more ahead including questions from our audience here to (INAUDIBLE) in a town hall with Governor Kasich (INAUDIBLE) MSNBC.  Stay with us.




    MATTHEWS:  We're back here from (INAUDIBLE) New York on Long Island, with Governor Kasich.  (INAUDIBLE) here.


    I don't know where to start but I want to ask you a question for (INAUDIBLE) but I have to do a couple of these things.


    First of all, I'm trying to think about your party.  You sound like your path, some of the other paths being a dark path and you've got the right path.


    (INAUDIBLE) years ago, your party had this autopsy.  It sounds pretty grim but the idea was how do we bring in more -- how do we bring in more people in a way Republicans?


    How do we bring in people Hispanic and gay people and African Americans and how's that going and gay people, how's that going, honestly?


    Is that working?


    KASICH:  Well, it's working in Ohio.




    KASICH:  -- because to be a -- you know, I have a right to define what it means to be a conservative and to be a Republican.  So you know -- and my reelection, I received 60 percent of women, 51 percent of union households.  Pretty amazing -- and 26 percent of the African American --




    MATTHEWS:  -- opposition from the Democrats?


    KASICH:  Well, and the thing is is that when you  bring people together and you can lift them -- I was in Baltimore yesterday and we were -- I'm very worried about Baltimore from the standpoint of those riots we saw.


    So I asked -- we were talking about it and some guy says you know how you solve a lot of these problems?


    Create jobs.


    MATTHEWS:  I agree.


    KASICH:  And that's exactly right.  And that's what we've tried to do in the state.  And we have.  And that's --




    KASICH:  -- everybody gets lifted.


    I got one other thing to tell you.  For 30 years, I worked on balancing the budget.  And I always had problems trying to explain to people exactly why it matters, OK?  So now I can tell you.  I figured it out.


    We have a $19 trillion debt.  When the debt goes up, your job opportunities go down.  And when the debt comes down, your job opportunities --




    MATTHEWS:  (INAUDIBLE).  How's it work that way?


    KASICH:  Well, because what you do is you make job creators very nervous.  When they think the debt is out of control, they just don't invest.  And they don't create jobs.  And it's particularly through small business.  


    So it's -- it is debt.  It's also higher taxes.  Look at Connecticut.  And it's also regulations.


    So there are three things you need to do to create jobs.  And that's precisely what we did in the state, what I did in Washington, what I'll do again.


    But when you have jobs, then you have a chance to reach out to people who often feel neglected.  The mentally ill:  they shouldn't be living under a bridge or in prison.  The drug addicted:  you can then have the resources to treat them, to get them on their feet.


    So that is a Republican Party that I believe in, one that is all about opportunity.


    But, Chris, as my mother used to say about the poor, it's a sin not to help somebody who needs help.  But it's equally (INAUDIBLE) to continue to help somebody who needs to learn how to help themselves.  That's a good philosophy.






    Most -- I mean, (INAUDIBLE) politics to talk about it.  I think that -- just love talking politics.  Women more so every year.  But there are more women voters than there are men.  And 75 percent of American women voters right now say they will not vote -- they do not trust and do not like Donald Trump.




    KASICH:  And that's pretty unbelievable.


    MATTHEWS:  Well, it is -- what do you do --


    KASICH:  You got to work to get that --






    MATTHEWS:  Well, he has.


    KASICH:  He has.


    MATTHEWS:  And he fights with Carly Fiorina --




    KASICH:  -- why he's still in the race?


    I mean, why would I not be in the race?


    This is a guy that has a 75 percent negative among married women?


    Are you kidding me?


    We got to write -- when we going to get our menu? 


    Pick the menu that he would present.  You can't -- nobody's going to order anything off the menu.  OK?  And we're not only going to lose the -- we're not going to lose the White House and the court is gone and then the courthouse to the statehouse, I mean, we just take a dropping.  But that's why he's not going to win.


    Why he's not going to get --


    MATTHEWS:  But a lot of women may be --




    MATTHEWS:  -- they may be worried about (INAUDIBLE) like you.  And they're conservative.  Except on these social issues.  They are pro-choice in many cases because they --




    KASICH:  That's divided, OK.


    MATTHEWS:  That's divided because --




    MATTHEWS:  -- pro-choice in this state, I can tell you.


    And a lot of women who say, you know, I'm straight; I'm married to my husband.  I'm happy to (INAUDIBLE) still married.  But the fact that two guys and (INAUDIBLE) doesn't affect me any.


    What's your view on those subjects?


    KASICH:  Well, you know, I support traditional marriage --


    MATTHEWS:  What does that mean?


    KASICH:  Between a man and a woman.


    MATTHEWS:  Well, yes, I know that.


    KASICH:  OK?




    KASICH:  No, I said the court has ruled and we're not going to pass any laws now.  It's in place.


    See, there's a -- there's an issue here, though, that I keep wading into.  People ask me, look, Chris, we have -- there is a -- there is a conflict to some degree between people practicing their deeply held religious beliefs, which they have a right to do and the issue of discrimination against somebody that they think is doing something inappropriate.


    That has to be balanced.  And what I'm trying to argue is everybody just take a breath and let's just try to understand one another a little bit better and be more tolerant because once you write a law, then they keep -- you keep rewriting the laws because you never --




    MATTHEWS:  -- tolerate same-sex marriage?


    KASICH:  Yes.  I mean, I'm not going to -- yes --


    MATTHEWS:  You tolerate it?


    KASICH:  -- I went to one.


    MATTHEWS:  Yes, I know you did.


    KASICH:  Yes.  So I mean --




    KASICH:  -- I don't think it's right and the wedding that I went to, they know that I don't agree with them.


    MATTHEWS:  What should gay people do if they love each other?


    KASICH:  What should they do?


    MATTHEWS:  If they love each other, what should they do?


    KASICH:  Well, they should love one another.




    MATTHEWS:  -- but not get married?


    KASICH:  I've given you the answer.  I believe in traditional marriage --






    KASICH:  No, wait.  Here's the thing.  There could be an effort to pass a constitutional amendment.  I'm not for doing it.  I'm for moving on. 


    And you know what? 


    I'm also -- I'm also a believer that if I don't like what somebody is doing, I got a couple things I can do.  I can tolerate it.  I can say something or I can have another thing I could do.  I can pray for a person.  That's another thing I can do.




    So you're not -- you're not driving me into some ditch here, Chris.


    MATTHEWS:  No, I'm not trying to.


    KASICH:  You're not going to.  OK?


    MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you about the (INAUDIBLE) --




    MATTHEWS:  -- because I think it was interesting, you would go to a gay -- this is in my special field of interest but the fact that you would go to a gay wedding and you would help celebrate it with people and you would say I believe a traditional marriage, I don't -- I still don't get the -- your exact position.


    Would you like to change the law?


    KASICH:  But it's -- exactly where it is now, I'm fine with it.




    KASICH:  I just don't want anybody kind of on either end trying to drive controversy because it has to --


    MATTHEWS:  Oh, I know.


    KASICH:  -- it has to do with respecting people's deeply held religious beliefs versus something that could be discriminatory.  And it has to be --


    MATTHEWS:  See, you're taking it -- it just sounds very different to a person here, what you're saying, than what a Ted Cruz says.


    KASICH:  But I'm running.  




    MATTHEWS:  I'm trying to bring out the differences in what the candidates stand for.


    Cruz is, you know, evangelical and he runs on this kind of thing.


    You don't.


    KASICH:  No.


    MATTHEWS:  All right.  Let's get a question.


    QUESTION:  Governor Kasich, thank you and welcome to beautiful Long Island.


    KASICH:  Strong Island (ph), some of us call it.




    KASICH:  I've eaten my way across the entire state of New York and I've had the best time.  And you know, they talk about New York values.  I bring my -- I have twin daughters, you know, and a wife and my wife and I come here and I take my -- one of them each to New York.  And you know what, there's not a greater place in the world than (INAUDIBLE).




    KASICH:  And that's not -- and that's not pandering.  I really love it.  I think it's -- I mean, look, you're alive, you're youth -- 




    KASICH:  -- I've been in and out of here for 10 years.




    KASICH:  No.  No.  Here's why I want to live here.


    Well, first of all, I love where I live and I love Ohio.  But the thing that would be a challenge for me -- you know, I've traffic and things like that.  But that's why I don't want to live here.  But I love coming here.  OK?  So but I want to invite you all to come to Ohio.  It's great.  I'm telling you.






    QUESTION:  Allow me to introduce myself.


    My name is Dr. Cynthia Colus (ph).  I'm a proud veteran.  I've served this country for four years as Lt. Commander in the United States (INAUDIBLE).  Thank you.




    QUESTION:  (INAUDIBLE) medical school of the United States Public Health Service and I work with the Native Americans in Oklahoma.  And afterward, I said way down to Texas.


    I've had a unique experience for almost 20 years, I worked the border towns in Texas.  I worked Brownsville, Harlingen, Laredo, McAllen.  I worked all those towns that we affectionately refer to as the Knife and Gun Club.  I worked the night shift there.


    You talk about building bridges.  I literally got to see what that wall was like, which is like Swiss cheese or doesn't exist.  


    QUESTION:  The question is have you done your homework?


    I mean, I'm going to go into that voting booth next week.


    You're one of the few candidates -- well, the only person that's really gone down to see the border with Donald Trump.  He gets it.  He talked to the border patrol.  He talked to the people.


    MATTHEWS:  What policy would you push?


    QUESTION:  I feel that those borders need to be secured.  And I do. 






    QUESTION:  No, and I'll tell you why because the crime is rampant.  I mean, it's one thing, when you're talking the talk and I do like you.  But I'm concerned that why have you not gone down to the border?


    Why have you not talked to the people there?


    And see what these people are --


    MATTHEWS:  -- get an answer.


    KASICH:  I've talked to people who were there.  I haven't actually been there to look at those --


    QUESTION:  But why not?


    KASICH:  -- well, because there's so many hours in the day.  I mean, would I -- do I think it'd be great to go there?


    Yes, there's a lot of places I would like to go all over the country.  But there's only so much time.


    But I don't -- I didn't know that you didn't know that I absolutely believe we have to secure the border.  I know we have to secure the border.


    We were just talking here about what -- you know, in '86, Reagan and the Republicans and Democrats passed a plan on immigration.  But we talked about it.  We didn't -- we didn't enforce it.  And we need to enforce it.  And we have to protect our border.


    And I'll tell you, it's not just because of that.  I worry about ISIS or people who are part of that coming into our country.


    So it's a given.  It's a given we do that.  But we ought -- we shouldn't just do that and then wait to  -- do it all at one time.  And the other thing is, if somebody comes across that border, we got to send them back now.  No more coming in.  And you got to do it legally, OK?






    MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  Thank you very much for that description.


    But stay with us.  Much more of our MSNBC town hall with Ohio Governor John Kasich still ahead.  We'll be right back.








    MATTHEWS:  We're back with Governor John Kasich.  Let's go to the next question.



    QUESTION:  I'm -- my name is Nathan Jackson.  I'm a publicist and I want to thank you, Governor, for coming to one of our Long Island landmarks, the (INAUDIBLE).  And a quick question --




    QUESTION:  -- what are your plans for national health care?  I know everybody's talking about repealing ObamaCare but most of the world -- most of the country wants it.


    KASICH:  Well, look, the problem with ObamaCare is three things.  What -- the first problem is is that health care costs continue to rise.  They haven't dealt with that problem.


    Secondly, insurance costs have skyrocketed.  


    And thirdly, small businesses don't want to expand because they don't want to get caught in it.


    So is there an alternative?


    There better be.  First of all, I would take some of the federal resources, combine it with Medicaid, which I would send back to the states, let the states create their own -- their own way of coverage the working poor so millions of Americans don't lose health insurance.  But that's first step.


    The longer step would be we're driving in our state, which can be taken nationally towards total transparency, we want to know the quality of a hospital; we want to know the cost of a hospital.  We want to know the quality of a physician.  We want to know the cost of a physician.  And we are creating a system working with the insurance industry and with the hospital system and with the physicians to reward people who provide high quality below the average. If you are -- if you're providing high quality and your costs are low, we're going to give you a financial reward. 


    This will work in driving down -- putting downward pressure on health care costs, because we keep going the way we're going, look at our deductibles.  We might as well -- you know, we just might as well have catastrophic policies now.


    So, I believe -- look, we're going to -- we're actually doing this in our state, not just in government, but also the private sector, and we want to take this nationally.  So, we believe in the work.




    MATTHEWS:  Then you would repeal Obamacare?


    KASICH:  Yes. 


    MATTHEWS:  First, before we got something new or -- ?


    KASICH:  Well, I would have the whole --




    KASICH:  -- I'd just switch it all out, yes.


    MATTHEWS:  OK.  This next question, sir?


    JOSEPH DEANGELO (ph), EDUCATOR:  Hello, Governor.  My name is Joseph Deangelo, I'm an educator.  My question involves an incident yesterday where a war ship in the Baltics, an American war ship, was buzzed by two Russian fighters and a helicopter.  


    And this is part -- I'm assuming, an attempt to incite an incident.  This is part of a continuing problem that's occurred in China and also, for instance, the defense in Iran, the taking of one of our patrol boats.  I was -- I'm curious what you might do about such an international affair.


    KASICH:  Well, look, I mean, I served on the Armed Services Committee for 18 years, and I saw everything from the buildup of our military, to the collapse of the Berlin Wall, to pushing Saddam out of Kuwait.  And I was in the Pentagon after 9/11 at the request of Secretary Rumsfeld.


    The one thing you have to do is you have to be strong, sir.  You can't -- you can't say one thing and do another.  And you also have to stay cool.  We don't need to have an international -- an incident or a war.  But we need to make it clear to people we're not going to tolerate this kind of behavior.


    For example, I would tell the -- I would tell Putin we are going to arm the Ukrainians so they can fight for their freedom.  And by the way, if you try to --




    KASICH:  If you think you can invade NATO and not be attacking us, you're wrong, OK?  And with the Chinese, you don't own the South China Sea.  And the fact is, if you cyber attack us, we're -- we're not only going to defend ourselves, but we're going to take your systems out.


    See a lot of it is being --




    KASICH:  -- saying what you mean and meaning what you say.  But we don't want to get all worked up about something that can take us down the path where we may not be able to get back.  


    Now, this world needs to unify.  And we have to destroy ISIS.  The same coalition we used in the first Gulf War, we have to go and get them, with the Arab Muslim nations, along with Europe and ourselves in the air, on the ground.  


    When we beat it, the settle it -- to beat them, we settle it down, we come home.  Let them redraw the map, because they will redraw the map of the Middle East.


    And then finally, honestly, the civilized world has to beat the barbarians.  And so, we've got to take lemons and turn them into lemonade, and we've got to bring the whole civilized world together, not only on the military issues, but also intelligence and policing so that we can all be aware of where these people are so we can destroy them before they destroy any of the people that we love.  OK?




    MATTHEWS:  Can I -- ?




    MATTHEWS:  I want to follow up on how hawkish to dovish you are, where you are in that spectrum.  By the way, I think Hillary Clinton's much more hawkish than people think.  Bernie's not.


    KASICH:  He is.  He screwed up Libya.


    MATTHEWS:  Well -- I want to talk about your politics.




    MATTHEWS:  You talk about having a significant component of ground troops in going after ISIS.  You also supported the Iraq War.  In 2003, you voted for it, like Hillary did.


    KASICH:  Wait, no -- in 2002, I wasn't in Congress.


    MATTHEWS:  Well, you supported it.


    KASICH:  Well, because we thought --


    MATTHEWS:  At Ohio State, "We should go to war with Iraq," it's a direct quote.




    KASICH:  Let me -- let me explain.


    MATTHEWS:  Well, you said that.


    KASICH:  OK, can I explain why?


    MATTHEWS:  Sure.


    KASICH:  Because we had intelligence that indicated that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.  If he did not, I wouldn't have wanted to go.  And let's talk --


    MATTHEWS:  Who told you he did?


    KASICH:  Colin Powell.  The world.  The United States.


    MATTHEWS:  Do you think you were told the truth?


    KASICH:  Well, I don't think somebody was lying, from what I know, Chris.


    MATTHEWS:  Well, I talked to the top brief from the CIA in May of 2015, last -- just last May --


    KASICH:  Yes?


    MATTHEWS:  -- who said that Saddam Hussein -- no one ever said to the administration, meaning Cheney or W, that Saddam had --




    KASICH:  Well, I --


    MATTHEWS:  -- any kind of nuclear weapons.


    KASICH:  -- I think --


    MATTHEWS:  So, all this talk about nuclear weapons in Saddam's hands was not true --


    KASICH:  What did Powell say?


    MATTHEWS:  -- and they knew it -- Well, do you just believe people like that?


    KASICH:  Colin Powell?


    MATTHEWS:  Yes, you just believe him?


    KASICH:  Oh, well, I -- 




    KASICH:  Chris, the whole world --




    MATTHEWS:  Did he actually say he had nuclear weapons?


    KASICH:  Yes.  Why, sure he did.


    MATTHEWS:  Or did they use the phrase "weapons of mass destruction" instead of -- confused a little bit.


    KASICH:  Look -- OK, look.  Here's what I would tell you.  When Reagan had troops in Lebanon --


    MATTHEWS:  Yes?


    KASICH:  -- I voted against having them there.


    MATTHEWS:  Right.


    KASICH:  I said, you don't get in civil wars.  I now believe we need to get out of Afghanistan.  I -- if I were president, I wouldn't be announcing the timeline, but I would give the aircraft that the Afghans need, and I'd get out of there.


    And then, if we saw people acting up in there, we'd use special forces to take them out.  Let me go on.  I've never been for being in the middle of civil wars.  I'm not in favor of using US forces on the ground against Assad.


    MATTHEWS:  Why were we in Iraq?


    KASICH:  Because we thought he was -- he posed a danger to us and the world.


    MATTHEWS:  What was the danger exactly?


    KASICH:  Nuclear weapons.


    MATTHEWS:  And who told you he had nuclear weapons.


    KASICH:  Chris.


    MATTHEWS:  I just wonder who told you?


    KASICH:  We -- yes, I did answer that.  But look, I heard Colin Powell, I heard Cheney, I heard the president of the United States, and so did Tony Blair.


    MATTHEWS:  Yes.


    KASICH:  And now he's being castigated for bad intelligence.  It is critical that we have good intelligence.  If I'm president, let me tell you the way you do it.  You sit in a room with your traditional intelligence person and you have your non-traditional intelligence person.


    MATTHEWS:  Right.


    KASICH:  You have your traditional military advisor and you have your non-traditional military advisor.  Because you need -- you cannot have group think.


    MATTHEWS:  Yes.


    KASICH:  If we'd have had group think, Kennedy would have bombed Cuba.  You've got to have a diversity of opinion --


    MATTHEWS:  Right.


    KASICH:  -- and it's up to --


    MATTHEWS:  And you believe W had that in the White House?


    KASICH:  Look, I'm not going into what W --




    MATTHEWS:  Why would you trust W and Cheney on an issue of war and peace when you know they're hawks.  In their core, they wanted that war, and you knew it.  Why would you trust their intelligence?




    KASICH:  Well I -- first of all, I didn't know that they wanted that war just to go to war.


    MATTHEWS:  They sure as hell did.


    KASICH:  Well, that's your opinion.  You should write a book about it.




    MATTHEWS:  No, it's the record.  It's on the record.




    KASICH:  Look, Chris.  I'm just going to tell you clearly -- I'm going to tell you clearly, now, if Saddam had not had -- if that intelligence information that got Tony Blair, even, to go, and then they called him Bush's poodle --


    MATTHEWS:  OK, well, I --


    KASICH:  If we didn't have that, I would never have gone.


    MATTHEW:  You know what?  I just have one question.




    KASICH:  Just like I think we --


    MATTHEWS:  If the CIA didn't believe they had nuclear weapons --


    KASICH:  Well, they --


    MATTHEWS:  -- why did everybody else in the administration?


    KASICH:  Because we -- I don't -- I think you're now recreating history.


    MATTHEWS:  No, no.


    KASICH:  Yes, I think you are.




    KASICH:  I think you are.  I think you are.  I think you're now -- what you're doing is you're Monday morning quarterbacking and say this and this and this and this wasn't true.  And by the way, Bush was a warmonger.


    MATTHEWS:  That's how we learn, though.  We learn when we make mistakes.


    KASICH:  OK -- well, that's right.  And I wouldn't do them again.  I would make sure that the intelligence was accurate.  And if it wasn't accurate, I wouldn't go.




    MATTHEWS:  Just for the record --


    KASICH:  Yes?


    MATTHEWS:  Just for the record, I asked all those questions to the top CIA briefer to find out what the actual objective truth was, not the political BS and the arguments back and forth and the ideology involved in going into that war.


    And the top briefer who briefed the administration, Mike Morell, told me on my show -- we've got the tape, we'll show it -- what he said -- they never had any testimony, they never gave testimony to the administration that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons.


    KASICH:  Yes.


    MATTHEWS:  So, however they spun this to get us into that war, it was spin.


    KASICH:  OK, let me say this about --


    MATTHEWS:  It was spin.


    KASICH:  -- about -- let me say this about -- let me say this.  First of all, just because one guy said something --


    MATTHEWS:  He's the chief briefer.  He's the guy that that briefed the White House.


    KASICH:  Look, I'm going to give you my opinion.  Just because one guy says something and gets a nice headline doesn't make it so. 


    MATTHEWS:  He didn't get a headline.


    KASICH:  Doesn't make it so.




    KASICH:  But let me tell you this.  If I thought --




    KASICH:  Wait a minute, folks.  Wait a minute.  If I thought they manipulated this to get us in a war like that --


    MATTHEWS:  Right.


    KASICH:  I would be -- you think I would defend them?  Are you kidding me?  I've never been -- I'm -- the Republican Party's my vehicle, it has never been my master.  


    MATTHEWS:  So you'd take --


    KASICH:  I've never shied away from critics in my own party.




    MATTHEWS:  You'd take Dick Cheney on good faith?


    KASICH:  No, I'm -- I --


    MATTHEWS:  Dick Cheney.


    KASICH:  No, I took Colin Powell and his presentation --




    MATTHEWS:  Who was told what to say by Cheney.


    KASICH: -- as the United States -- do you know Colin Powell?


    MATTHEWS:  Yes, I know him.


    KASICH:  OK, how many times are people --


    MATTHEWS:  Do you think he's happy about what he did?


    KASICH:  No -- well, sure he's not now, because we found out it wasn't true.  But you're not implying that he was some sort of a fool or got manipulated..


    MATTHEWS:  I think he was used.


    KASICH:  OK.  Shame on all of them.


    MATTHEWS:  You know why they did?  Because people like you and me trust him.  That's why they used him.  Because we would believe him.


    KASICH:  Well, here's what I would tell you going forward.




    KASICH:  We're not going to just go willy-nilly into the -- into war anywhere.  I'm -- I don't -- first of all --


    MATTHEWS:  That's what's surprising.  Why do you want to bring ground troops in to fight ISIS when we've been through the experience of ground troops in the Middle East --




    KASICH:  Well, you know what?  Because --


    MATTHEWS:  -- and it hasn't worked.


    KASICH:  Are you kidding?


    MATTHEWS:  It hasn't worked.


    KASICH:  The first Gulf War worked great.  The first Gulf War was a united world.  We could --


    MATTHEWS:  Because we didn't occupy a country.


    KASICH:  Exactly.  You know why?  Because Bush the father --


    MATTHEWS:  You were --


    KASICH:  Yes, but he -- we achieved our objectives.


    MATTHEWS:  So, why do you want to put ground troops in the fight against ISIS?


    KASICH:  Because we have to destroy them before they destroy us --




    MATTHEWS:  With ground troops?




    MATTHEWS:  With ground troops?


    KASICH:  Yes.  Wait a minute, Chris.  Wait a minute.  Do you actually think that you could destroy them without people on the ground?  Are you kidding me?


    MATTHEWS:  Well, what happens when one of our guys gets picked up and they say they're going to behead him in two days?  What are you going to do about that?




    KASICH:  Hey, look.  Look.


    MATTHEWS:  Doesn't that escalate it further?


    KASICH:  No.  What we need to do is --


    MATTHEWS:  Wouldn't it?


    KASICH:  No.  I don't --


    MATTHEWS:  It sure would.


    KASICH:  Look, it's -- all I'm going to say to you is this:  ISIS is spreading. It needs to be destroyed.  The caliphate needs to be destroyed.  It will take all the air -- a lot of the air out of the radicals.


    Number two, if you're not on the ground, it won't work.  You can't just do it from the air.  We learned that -- how many wars did we learn that in?




    KASICH:  So -- but -- but -- let me tell you this.  Once they're gone -- once they're gone, I'm for getting out of there.  I am not for the United States being an occupier.


    MATTHEWS:  Look, Mr. Governor, I -- look, we went into Afghanistan.  We went into Iraq twice.  We went into Libya.  We're in there now against Syria.




    KASICH:  I wouldn't have gone to Libya.


    MATTHEWS:  When are we going to stop this regime change?


    KASICH:  Well, I'm going to tell you.  First of all, I'm not at work --


    MATTHEWS:  When are we going to stop this business?  It's not working.


    KASICH:  -- and this is great.  This is --


    MATTHEWS;  It's not working.


    KASICH:  This is perfect.  Because none of these either people can talk about this, because they have no experience in this.  So, it gives me a chance to talk about -- let's talk about Libya.  


    Hillary Clinton went and put the pressure on the administration to get rid of Gaddafi.  We should never have done that.




    KASICH:  Gaddafi was working with us, OK?  It was a terrible, terrible mistake.


    KASICH:  Did you say that at the time?


    KASICH:  Yes.




    KASICH:  Yes.  


    MATTHEWS:  We'll check it out.


    KASICH:  Check it out.  And then, let me talk about Afghanistan.  I would have never added the extra troops.  I would have used special forces.  And when we see Al Qaeda somewhere, take them out with drones.  Take them out with special forces.


    MATTHEWS:  Right.


    KASICH:  I want to get out of there.


    MATTHEWS:  But you want to put troops into fighting ISIS.


    KASICH:  Yes, because ISIS is different.


    MATTHEWS:  How is that getting out of there?


    KASICH:  Chris, I am not for using troops to get rid of Assad, but I'm for troops for destroying ISIS, because the longer we wait, the more complicated it will become --




    KASICH:  And the more at risk we will be.




    KASICH:  And we need to defend America.




    MATTHEWS:  We're going to have more questions from the voters here when we come back.








    MATTHEWS:  We're back here in Jericho, New York, the center of all support for John Kasich.  Our MSNBC Town Hall continues now.  Next question.


    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes, good afternoon, Governor.  I want to know, what is your position about the -- North Carolina bathroom law.


    KASICH:  Well, I think governor now is trying to go and somehow improve that or fix that, and I wish him the best on that.


    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  So, you haven't had -- you haven't had --


    KASICH:  We're not passing anything like that in my state.




    MATTHEWS:  Next question please.




    MATTHEWS:  Come on.


    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I'm a Democrat, a liberal Democrat, actually, but you seem like a really authentic --


    KASICH:  Well, you can't cross over, now, so you have to vote for me in the fall.


    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  You seem like an authentic -- 




    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  -- really like you have deeply-held religious beliefs, so I've always wanted to ask this question of somebody who wasn't pro-choice.  I don't understand the exception part.  I don't understand if abortion is deemed murder why you would make any exceptions at all.


    KASICH:  Because I think they're appropriate.  And I just think they make sense to me, and that's why I'm for it.


    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  But it's not --




    KASICH:  And by the way -- by the way, you've brought up the issue of faith.  There's a lot of people who say, OK, well, if you have faith, how does that affect the way you do things?  


    You know, I don't feel I consult the Bible when I try to decide what to do.  I would say that the single biggest thing that faith has done for me is to slow me down and make sure that we do pay attention to people who traditionally get run over.  


    And those are -- whether they're the disabled, whether they're the poor.  It just forces me -- it doesn't force me, it just makes me more aware.  And so, that's how it's really -- it's really served me well.


    MATTHEWS:  OK.  We'll be right back.  Great question.  We'll be right back with more questions for John Kasich.








    MATTHEWS:  OK (INAUDIBLE) to Ohio governor John Kasich.  By the way, Governor, I'm going to wave the "New York Daily News" in your face.  This is the best -- you've been endorsed --


    KASICH:  Yes.


    MATTHEWS:  -- by the "Daily News."


    KASICH:  I got endorsed by about everybody, you know?




    KASICH:  And I appreciate it.


    MATTHEWS:  And I believe that some day will come that you will join Colin Powell in agreeing that you made a mistake in Iraq.


    KASICH:  OK.


    MATTHEWS:  Anyway, they're really in here at Jericho --




    KASICH:  Hey, you know what?  I want --




    KASICH:  I want to say one last thing.


    MATTHEWS:  Just to get the record straight --


    KASICH:  Yes.


    MATTHEWS:  Everybody here is for you.  OK?  This is not an objective focus group.  This is not a focus group.




    KASICH:  I want to say just one thing.  You know, when you do shows like this, you're only as good as the person who asks the question, and I tell you, every time Chris and I get together, I think it's really cool and there's some magic in it.  And I've loved -- I love doing stuff like this.


    MATTHEWS:  Governor.  I knew him when he was a nobody. 




    MATTHEWS:  I'll be right back at 11:00 tonight Eastern for a special post-debate edition "Hardball" as the Democrats face off in Brooklyn, that's Bernie and Hillary.  But stay tuned right now as Chuck Todd picks up things next in his exclusive Town Hall with Senator Ted Cruz.  




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